[meteorite-list] Alaskan and Siberian Mucks

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <879865.29773.qm_at_web36915.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hi Paul -

Thanks for the references to the post war research,
but I think you overstate your case.

Surely no archeological remains from 2 to 3 million
years ago are in the deposits which I refered to, and
which Hibbens examined.

The strata that I refered to did have archaeological
remains. They were also the source for the mega-fauna
ivory that was used commonly in the United States for
the manufacture of billiard balls and piano keys at
the turn of the last century. Why these mega-fauna
all chose to die at the same time is an interesting
question.

As far as depositional mechanisms goes, I do not
believe that there has been any work done on these
deposits since the discovery of impact mega-tsunami as
a geological process. Hibben ascribed them to
volcanic activity, and saw volcanic ash. To my
knowledge, they have never been examined for
impactites; the recent work that was done on the
holocene start impacts was privately funded to the
tune of some $70,000.

I think that ALL of these studies will need to be
re-examined before the questions of depositional
mechanisms is considered settled.

Finally, you left Alain and Delair out of your list of
cranks. But then as the saying goes, if you can't win
on points, baffle them with BS.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:32:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul <bristolia at yahoo.com>
Subject: [meteorite-list] The Imaginary Mucks of
Alaska and Siberia
        was "Arrowheads from NWA"
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Message-ID:
<20070611153243.84348.qmail at web36207.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

In the post "Arrowheads from NWA", Mr. Grondine wrote:

?The impact that produced the Alaskan and Siberian
mucks, and altered the north Pacific currents, and the
world's weather, are covered in my book "Man and
Impact in the Americas".?

One major problem is that the so-called "Alaskan and
Siberian
mucks" exist only in the very vivid imagination of
various
catastrophists, i.e. Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970),
and
Velikovsky (1955). Over the last sixty years, numerous
papers
have shown that the descriptions of the so-called
"Alaskan and
Siberian mucks" by Hibben (1942, 1946) and Rainey
(1940) are
grossly incorrect and completely refuted the
interpretations,
which they have made of their catastrophic origin.

A typical description of muck is:

"In Alaska, for example, thick frozen deposits of
volcanic ash, silts, sands, boulders, lenticles and
ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless relics of late
Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled together
in no discernible order. This amazing deposit,
usually referred to as 'muck', has been described
by Dr Rainey as containing: '... enormous numbers
of frozen bones of extinct animals, such as mammoth,
mastodon, super bison and horse, as well as brush,
stumps, moss and freshwater molluscs (281)'."

It has now been proved that such descriptions are
nothing more
than imaginative fiction, which have been soundly
refuted by
over 50 years of research and numerous peer-reviewed
papers
and monographs, which have been published by the
Quaternary
geologist, who have studied these deposits for
decades.

As proved by numerous published peer-reviewed papers
and
monographs, including Berger (2003), Bettis et al.
(2003),
Guthrie (1990), McDowell and Edwards (2001), Muhs et
al.
(2001, 2003, 2004), Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989),
and
Westgate et al. (1990), the claim that these deposits
consist
of "thick frozen deposits of volcanic ash, silts,
sands, boulders,
lenticles and ribbons of unmelted ice, and countless
relics of
late Pleistocene animals and plants lie jumbled
together in no
discernible order" is false. Instead, as described in
numerous
publications, specifically Guthrie (1990), Muhs et al.
(2003),
Pewe (1955, 1975a, 1975b, 1989), and Westgate et al.
(1990),
the deposits, which are often referred to as ?Alaskan
muck?
consist of a well-ordered, layer-cake sequence of
stratigraphic
units containing distinct paleosols and buried forests
with in
situ tree stumps. As seen in Figures 20 and 29 of Pewe
(1975);
Figure 4 of Pewe et al. (1997); and the measured
sections of
Westgate et al. (1990), the so-called ?muck? consists
of well-
defined geologic layers, which are only jumbled where
the
surface has been disturbed by either thermokarst,
landslides,
solifluction, or some combination of these processes.
The total
thickness of the Quaternary deposits, which have been
designated
as ?muck? is only 10 to 20 m (33 to 66 ft) as their
thickest,
which become thinner upslope.

Satrting with Pewe (1955), Quaternary geologists have
recognized
the presence of 7 well-defined stratigraphic units,
which the
deposits that are falsely described as being ?jumbled
together
in no discernible order?. Some of these stratigraphic
units, i.e.
the Ready Bullion Formation, Engineer Loess,
Goldstream
Formation, Gold Hill Loess, and the Fairbanks Loess,
consist
of silt, which have been demonstrated to consist of a
combination
of wind-blown silt called "loess" and sediments moved
down-hill
by slopewash and solifluction. Some stratigraphic
units, i.e. the
Dawson Cut and Eva Formations, contain buried, in situ
forests
that are rooted in "fossil" soils, which are called
?paleosols?.
Other stratigraphic units , i.e. the Tanana Formation,
Fox
Gravel, and Cripple Gravel, consist of gravels, which
often
contain gold and demonstrated to have been deposited
by
streams (Bettis et al. 2003; Pewe 1955, 1975a, 1975b,
1989;
Pewe et al. 1997; Westgate et al. 1990; Muhs et al.
2001,
2003, 2004).

In addition, the contacts between these stratigraphic
units are
well-defined, persistent, and easily mappable. The
forest beds,
ice-wedge casts, and buried soils, which are found
associated
with the contacts demonstrate the periods of
nondeposition
lasting thousands to tens of thousands years occurred
between
the deposition different stratigraphic units. They
soundly
refute the claim that the ?Alaskan muck? accumulated
during a
single catastrophic event. Even within individual
stratigraphic
units, paleosols can be found indicating that the
accumulation
of sediments comprising individual them was not
continuous being
interrupted by periods of either nondeposition and
landscape
stability or erosion (Bettis et al. 2003; Pewe 1955,
1975a,
1975b, 1989; Pewe et al. 1997; Westgate et al. 1990;
Muhs et
al. 2001, 2003, 2004).


Rainey (1940) and Hibbens (1942, 1946) were wrong in
their
claims that the remains plant and animal fossils occur
randomly
together throughout the ?Alaskan muck?. The fossils,
rather
subfossils of trees are typically limited to one of
three buried
forest beds, which have been mapped within the
so-called
 ?Alaskan muck?. For example as shown in Figure 29 of
Pewe
(1975a), buried forest containing in situ tree stumps
at the
top of the Fox Gravel, the Gold Hill Loess, and the
Goldstream
Loess. Each of these buried forests are characterized
by the
in situ stumps of mature trees rooted in buried soils
developed
in the top of each of these units (Pewe 1975a, 1975b,
1989;
Pewe et al. 1997). These buried forests consist of the
stumps
and fallen trunks of forests buried in place by
colluvial deposits
or solifluction lobes. Papers and monographs published
in the
last fifty years have shown the claims and
descriptions made
by Rainey (1940) and Hibben (1942, 1946) concerning
the
abundance and distribution of fossil bones to be
grossly
exaggerated and quite inaccurate.

Mr. Grondine continued:

" It is too bad these mucks are not absolutely dated
yet. But 11,000 BCE would be a late date for Bessey's
"arrowheads" (points) - most are likely far older."

The fact of the matter is that both the ?Alaskan and
Siberian
mucks? have been repeatedly dated by luminescence and
optical
stimulated luminescence dating and dating of any
volcanic ash
layers found in them. The younger ?muck deposits? have
been
dated by radiocarbon dating and the archaeological
remains,
which they contain. These dates demonstrate that the
sediments,
which are haphazardly and incorrectly lumped together
as a single
?Alaskan muck?, episodically accumulated over a period
of 2
to 3 million years, with the youngest deposits having
accumulated
as recently as 7,000 to 8,000 years ago. The youngest
forest bed,
the Eva Forest Bed, dates to the last interglacial,
about 125,000
years ago as determined by Pewe et al. (1997). It and
the ?muck?
beneath it are far too old to be related to any
terminal Pleistocene
catastrophe. The oldest forest bed, the Dawson Cut
Forest Bed,
has been found to be almost 2 million years old by
Westgate et
al. (2003). These dates, paleosols, and in situ forest
beds,
indicate that the ?Alaskan muck? did not accumulate as
the
result of one event, but rather represents periods
during which
loess and other sediments accumulated separated by
very long
periods, thousands to tens of thousands of years,
during which
there was a lack of any accumulation of ?muck?
(Berger 2003,
Muhs et al. (2001, 2003, 2004), Pewe (1955, 1975a,
1975b,
1989), Pewe et al. (1997), and Westgate et al. (1990).

In case of the ?Siberian muck?, there are numerous
published,
peer-reviewed papers and monographs, which also refute
all of
what Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), Velikovsky
(1955), and
others have written about it. What these papers and
monographs
prove is that the so-called ?Siberian muck?, like the
?Alaskan
mucks? consist of multiple well-defined and
recognizable
stratigraphic units that are **not ** ?jumbled
together in no
discernible order?. They demonstrate that many of
these units
typically occur in an ordered and predictable layer
caked fashion
and are both separated by and internally contain well
defined
paleosols, which represent periods during, which the
deposition
of the so-called ?Siberian muck? ceased for periods of
hundreds
to thousands and tens of thousands years and allowed
the
formation of mature soils. The Siberian muck as
described by
Deloria (1997), Hapgood (1970), and Velikovsky (1955),

exists only in the rather vivid imagination of these
writers.

In addition these publications contain numerous
luminescence,
optical stimulated luminescence, and radiocarbon dates
along
with artifacts found within them, that date the age of
the
various stratigraphic units comprising the ?Siberian
muck?. At
one location, these dates and paleosols show distinct
periods
during which the ?Siberian muck? accumulated between
18,000 to 28,000 BP, around 40,000 to 50,000 BP, and
about
89,000 BP (Frechen and Yamskikh 1999). Rutter et al.
(2003)
dated individual stratigraphic units within the
?Siberian muck?,
which are separated by paleosols, as being as old as
88,000,
101,000 to 109,000, and 130,000 BP. These and many,
many
other dates soundly and repeatedly refute any
connection
between the deposition of the ?Siberian muck? and any
terminal Pleistocene catastrophe.

(Note this is a revision of previous essay, which I
have
written about the ?Alaskan muck?.)

References:

Berger, Glenn W., 2003, Luminescence chronology of
Late
Pleistocene loess-paleosol and tephra sequences near
Fairbanks,
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 60, no. 1, Pages
70-83.

Bettis, E. A., Muhs, D. R., Robert, H. M., and Wintle,
A. G.,
2003, Last Glacial loess in the conterminous USA.
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19,
pp. 1907-1946

Deloria, Vine, Jr., 1997, Red Earth, White Lies:
Native
Americans and the Myth of Scientific Fact. Fulcrum
Publishing. Golden, Colorado.

Frenchen, M., and Yamskikh, 1995, Upper Pleistocene
loess
stratigraphy in the southern Yenisei Siberia area.
Jounral
of the Geological Society of London. vol. 156, pp.
515-525.

Gutherie, R. D., 1990, Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth
Steppes:
The Story of Blue Babe. University of Chicago Press,
Chicago,
Illinois.

Hapgood, C. H., 1970, The Path of The Pole. Chilton
Book
Company. New York, New York.

Hibben, Frank C., 1942, Evidences of early man in
Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, pp. 254-259.

Hibben, Frank C., 1946. Lost Americans. Crowell. New
York,
New York.

Muhs, D. R., Ager T. A., and Beg?t, J. E., 2001,
Vegetation
and paleoclimate of the last interglacial period,
central Alaska
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp.
41-61.

Muhs, D. R., McGeehin, J. P, Beann, J., and Fisher,
E., 2004,
Holocene loess deposition and soil formation as
competing
processes, Matanuska Valley, southern Alaska.
Quaternary
Research. vol. 61, no. 3, pp. 265-276

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., and Beg?t, J., 2004,
Stratigraphy and
palaeoclimatic significance of Late Quaternary
loess?palaeosol
sequences of the Last Interglacial?Glacial cycle in
central
Alaska. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no.
18-19,
pp. 1947-1986.

McDowell, P. F., and Edwards, M. E., 2001, Evidence of

Quaternary climatic variations in a sequence of loess
and
related deposits at Birch Creek, Alaska: implications
for the
Stage 5 climatic chronology. Quaternary Science
Reviews,
vol. 20, no.1-3, pp. 63-76.

Pewe, T. L., 1955, Origin of the upland silt near
Fairbanks,
Alaska. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol.
66,
no. 6, pp. 699-724.

Pewe, T. L., 1975a, Quaternary Geology of Alaska. U.S.

Geological Survey Professional Paper 835, 145 pp.
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp835

Pewe, T. L., 1975b, Quaternary Stratigraphic
Nomenclature in
Central Alaska. U.S. Geological Survey Professional
Paper
no. 862, 32 pp.
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp862

Pewe, T. L., 1989, Quaternary stratigraphy of the
Fairbanks
area, Alaska. in Late Cenozoic History of the Interior
Basins
of Alaska and the Yukon. U.S. Geological Survey
Circular
no. 1026, pp. 72-77.

Pewe, T. L., Berger, G. W., Westgate, J. A., Brown, P.
A., and
Leavitt, S. W., 1997, Eva Interglacial Forest Bed,
Unglaciated
East-Central Alaska. Geological Society of America
Special
Paper no. 319, 54 pp.

Rainey, F., 1940, Archaeological Investigations in
Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 5, pp. 299-308.

Rutter, N. W., Rokosh, D., Evans, M. E., Little, E.
C., Chlachula,
J., and Velichko, A., 2003, Correlation and
interpretation of
paleosols and loess across European Russia and Asia
over
the last interglacial-glacial cycle. Quaternary
Research.
vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 101-109.

Velikovsky, Immanuel, 1955. Earth in Upheaval.
Doubleday
and Company, Garden City, New York.

Westgate, J. A., Stemper, B. A., and Pewe, T. L.,
1990, A 3
m.y. record of Pliocene-Pleistocene loess in interior
Alaska.
Geology. vol. 18, no. 9, p. 858-861.

Westgate, John A., Preece, Shari J., and Pewe, Troy
L., 2003,
The Dawson Cut Forest Bed in the Fairbanks area,
Alaska, is
about two million years old. Quaternary Research. vol.
60,
no. 1, Pages 2-8.

Yours,

Paul


       



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Received on Mon 11 Jun 2007 04:15:32 PM PDT