[meteorite-list] Samples

From: mexicodoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 13:53:48 -0600
Message-ID: <010c01c848c2$336c9af0$4001a8c0_at_MICASA>

Hi Tim,

OK, I guess the first thing I assumed (and possibly Mike did, too) was since
you called it a fall it was like Gao-Guenie: a witnessed fall.

But since you are apparently discussing an unwitnessed fall from a hot
desert a.k.a. for us, dense collecting area (don't know where else to get
all those Mars rocks), the best thing to do is to plot the strewn field. In
the contemporary world that seems so difficult since we can't even get
location information for one stone that has already been through maybe
several hands.

So I only see two options or combinations between them:

1) Don't buy anything that is not documented. Discourage others supporting
this.
2) Buy everything under an agreement of trust from a reputable seller and
submit the batch to a scientist and let him/her minimize the guesswork and
possibly minor tests if doubts come up. Or in a positive light, to convince
the scientist to say the batch is the same material or cull out what is not
to arrive at the TKW.

If you want to by Mars without any formal classification, in the form of
many pebbles, there is no solution except 2), whether you go it alone or
spread the risk with partners. Because you would now be representing a rock
that has been subjectively field "classified". While some people can live
with this, others can't. If you can at least get locational information for
your specimens, you don't have to give the full 20/20 - or anything for that
matter if enough to meet the combined 20/20 is in curation as vouchers for
the group after the naming of your material - if a scientist agrees to
classify and pair it to an existing classification. This is the motivation
of the newer guidelines.

Some people get mad about subjective classification, because they broke the
ground on the sample and "invested", while others are pissed that it is
obvious and common sense dictates the material is what it is (arguments
like, bought from the same trader, got from the same nomad, found together):
with no further support except subjective judgements perceived as strong and
well founded.

This latter may be true, but that still doesn't remove the reality. Only if
the specimens fit together can this be foolproof. Even an expert meteorite
hunter scientist can find or purchase a handful of meteorites in the field
from a known fall and every once in a while a terrestrial rock can sneak in
that has you fooled like a baby. Let me say it has happened to me, and it
is a very frustrating and humbling experience. Some time I'll tell the
story of a meteorwrong that saw me coming it was a remarkable fraud that
would surprise anyone - the best scientists, at their first glance,
included.

So, the reality is also that unless each rock is carefully studied, nothing
can avoid ocassional duds getting mixed in. Not to mention incorrect
pairing of similr meteorites. Luckily in the sandy desert this isn't as
great a problem as areas with varieties of rocks.

How Unsettling, How Disagreeable to the innocent collector and enthusiast,
scientist alike- but true. This is rthe dirty laundry of meteorite
collecting. Hopefully someone has a better suggestion, but I wouldn't hold
my breath unless I were an alchemist capable of ethically transmuting
batches of meteorites ;-) There is no free lunch... and no one can make
promises for something that hasn't been done. (Or can they?)

This whole thing gets sticky, when, you buy meteorites from the literally
same batch that another person has already classified. Sure: you may have
the same material, but then again, just because the original buyer may not
have demanded 100% error proffing during the classification and is selling
some stones under the classification he got, doesn't make yours any more
paired to the ones that were used for the typing work.

Best wishes, Doug


----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
To: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>; <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples


> Doug,
>
> This is what I'm thinking.
>
> Lets say I bought 50 Mars stones and the biggest was only 8 grams, now
> what?
>
> I'm thinking what do I do now Doug?
>
>
> Mike Farmer brings up a good point tens of thousands of Gao stones, and
> why
> dont cut them or classify all of them! Same with Canyon Diablo.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>
>
> Tim,
> I give up, what are you thinking - to sell them unclassified except for a
> 2
> gram stone and then give a scientist 0.4 grams in exchange for classifying
> the entire fall? Naughty naughty
> Doug
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
> To: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>; "Andreas Gren"
> <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'Peter A Shugar'" <pshugar at clearwire.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>
>
> What if you had 20 stones all around 2 to10 grams each all from the same
> fall?
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
> To: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'Peter A Shugar'"
> <pshugar at clearwire.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>
>
>
> Andi,
>
> What about a stone that is 5 grams?
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>
> To: "'Peter A Shugar'" <pshugar at clearwire.net>
> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>
>
> Hi Pete
>
> 20% or 20g is the rule
>
> Andi
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter
> A
> Shugar
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Dezember 2007 18:24
> An: LIST
> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Samples
>
> Hello Listies,
> Maybe someone can answer this for me.
> Where did the 20% value come from to classify a meteorite? If a meteorite
> were found
> that, say , was 1.2 grams, unpaired with anything else, then the sample
> must
> needs be
> .24 grams, if I've figured right. This is a very significant portion of
> the
> meteorite.
> Then on the other hand should one be found that was 1 ton, the sample
> would
> be 400
> pounds. If a classification can be done with .24 gram, why can't it be
> done
> with a much
> smaller piece of the 1 ton meteorite?
> Just learning here, please bear with me.
> Thanks,
> Pete
>
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Received on Thu 27 Dec 2007 02:53:48 PM PST