[meteorite-list] More Muck from Paul

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <308720.61958.qm_at_web36912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Kevin -

The Ica Stones appear to be fakes. As you appear to
be particularly interested in them, I will send you a
backgrounder on some of the people involved with them.
 

Any other list members who may want a copy of this
please contact me off list.

E.P. Grondine
Man and Impact in the Americas
try Mark Abbott for a trade,
or contact me off list for a signed copy
"Geopoetry!" - Paul


--- kevin decker <innocentwolf15 at hotmail.com> wrote:


---------------------------------

Hi List, Have they resolved as to why the "Black
Matte" Resembles "Lunar Procellarum KREEP"..?, Is
anyone Familiar with the "Ica Stones of Peru"..? On
one of the stones, which is a drawing of two
Indians?..Looking up at the moon while an
Asteroid?..bounces off the moon and seemingly heads
towards earth?.. could that account for the similarity
between the "Black Matte material"..and the Lunar
Procellerum KREEP?....Thanks...





Kevin W.L.Decker

---------------------------------
From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com>
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Subject: [meteorite-list] More Muck from Paul
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:37:37 -0700 (PDT)
>Hi all -
>
>Sorry for the diversion from meteorites to impacts.
>Why?
>
>What you're being treated to here is the heated
>repetition by Paul of the arguments against man
having
>arrived in the Americas before Clovis as well as
those
>arguments against a catastrophe.
>
>We've already been through the use of Hibbens data by
>other catastrophists who had imaginary catastrophic
>physical processes, and the reaction by the
scientific
>community.
>
>We now move on to the field of anthropology. Hibbens
>was the first to discover pre-Clovis points (at
>Sandia), and thus was particularly attacked by those
>who posited no earlier peoples than those who
produced
>the Clovis points.
>
>Unfortunately for the Clovis First argument, there
are
>sites with hard dates showing pre-Clovis (Meadowcroft
>and Bluefish Cave sites for the Iroquoian peoples;
and
>Pedra Furada for the Savanah River peoples). But
these
>artifacts and radio-carbon dates are not the deciding
>point: the undeniable and hard mitochondrial DNA
>evidence in the remaining peoples must be the result
>of several crossings at times well before Clovis.
>
>Back now to the Fairbank muck deposit: I WAS WRONG. I
>MADE A MISTAKE. AN ERROR.
>
>Clearly, the deposits which Hibbens observed at
>Fairbanks came from the sudden ice melt following
this
>impact event:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1GCgOI3B1o
>
>But with this muck now accounted for, I am left
trying
>to locate recovered physical evidence of the impact
>mega-tsunami which the Lenape described. (The
>following account has been adapted to modern usage
>from the one preserved in the Walum Olum, the ancient
>history of the Lenape people.):
>
>1. Long ago there was a Mighty Snake [comet], and
>beings evil to men.
>2. This Mighty Snake [comet] hated those who were
>there,
>(and) he greatly disquieted those whom he hated.
>3. He harmed all things, he injured all things,
>and all were not in peace.
>4. Driven from their homes, the men fought with this
>murderer.
>5. The Mighty Snake [comet] firmly resolved to harm
>the men.
>6. The Mighty Snake [comet] brought three persons
>[fragments?],
>he brought a monster [impact],
>he brought rushing water [an impact mega-tsunami].
>7. Between the hills the water rushed and rushed,
>dashing through and through, destroying much.
>8. Nanabush, the Strong White One, Grandfather of
>beings, Grandfather of men, was on Turtle Island.
>
>While "Turtle Island" has certain allegorical aspects
>, it is strange to see the turtle play such an
>essential role in Lenape legend. Turtles are
reptiles,
>and for the most part are unable to generate internal
>heat to warm their bodies, which limits their range
to
>temperate climates; there are and were none of these
>in the far north of the Lenape people's original
>homeland. The only possible exception here may have
>been sea turtles, which thrive in warm water: perhaps
>the Japanese Current provided warm water to coastal
>Alaska, and "Turtle Island" refers to coastal Alaska
>before the end of the last Ice Age. (I also need to
>mention here that the Great Turtle allegory survived
>among the peoples of Shanxi, China.)
>
>9. There he was walking and creating:
>and as he passed by,
>he created the turtle [skin boats?].
>10. Beings and men all went forth,
>they walked in the floods and shallow waters,
>down stream there in the turtle [skin boats?].
>11. There were many monster fishes, which ate some of
>them.
>12. The Great Mind's daughter came,
>and helped with her canoe [wooden boat]:
>she helped all, as they came and came.
>13. Thus Nanabush, Nanabush, the Grandfather of all,
>the Grandfather of beings, the Grandfather of men,
>became the Grandfather of the turtle [skin boats?].
>14. The men were then together on the Great Turtle
>[the Earth], like turtles.
>15. Frightened on the Great Turtle [the Earth],
>they prayed that what was spoiled should be restored.
>16. The water ran off, the earth dried, the lakes
were
>at rest,
>all was silent, and the Mighty Snake [comet]
departed.
>
>Whether these impacts were the cause of the end of
the
>Ice Age or just coincidental to it is a hotly debated
>topic. Whatever the cause, the climate did begin to
>change.
>
>Part III
>1. After the rushing waters [had finished],
> the Lenape of the [Sea] Turtle were close together,
>living together there in hollow houses..
>2. It froze where they lived, it snowed where they
>lived, it stormed where they lived, it was cold where
>they lived.
>3. At this northern place they spoke favorably
>of mild, cool (lands), with many deer and buffaloes.
>4. As they journeyed, some being strong, and others
>rich, they separated into house-builders and hunters;
>5. The strongest, the most united, the purest, were
>the hunters.
>6. The hunters showed themselves at the north, at the
>east, at the south, at the west.
>
>Let's look at Hibbens description of Chitna Bay:
>
>"On one particular rainy, dark afternoon, we were
>assisting one of the paleontologists in excavating
the
>remains of an Alaskan lion-a great, striped beast
with
>long fangs, slightly reminiscent of a Bengal tiger.
He
>looked like a nasty customer in death, even though he
>was represented only by scattered bones in the black
>muck. As we sought for the lower jaw of the lion in a
>newly revealed surface of muck, we found our evidence
>of man-a flint point still frozen solid in the muck
>bank.
>
>"Its position was about NINETY FEET BELOW THE
ORIGINAL
>SURFACE. We photographed it in place, then removed it
>from the frozen ground, eagerly held it up, and
turned
>it over for inspection. We washed the clinging muck
>from it in the muddy water beneath our feet. It was
of
>pink stone, finely chipped and gracefully shaped, and
>undoubtedly made by the hand of man."
>
>Paul cited to me a "re-examination" of the site,
which
>bears no resemblance to the one Hibbens described:
>
>Also, in 1978, archaeologists studied the location of
>a site along the southern shore of Chinitna Bay
>between Coffin Creek and Sea Otter Point, where
Hibben
>(1943) claimed to have found a Paleo-Indian point in
>his "muck deposits? (Myers 1980). Using his
>photographs,
>they were able to relocate his site. Instead of any
>tsunami deposits, they found ?...marine muds and salt
>marsh deposits which are capped by a layer of peat
>and, in some locations, by colluvial sediments.?
>Within these sediments they found ?one or more woody
>peats or paleosols...?, of which one was the ?humus
>stratum?, from which Hibben (1943) reported to have
>found cultural material. They found that the layer of
>?muck?, which was reported by Hibben (1943), at
>this site, likely consists of a stratum of oxidized
>marine muds and salt marsh deposits.
>
>In situ wood samples from a blue-grey clay,which
>underlay Hibben?s cultural stratum, yielded two C-14
>dates;
>1. a date of 375+/-120 radiocarbon years: 1575 A.D.
>(GX-5655) and
>2. a date of 300 +/-130 radiocarbon years: 1650 A.D.
>(GX-5656)
>(Myer 1980). Neither the early man occupation,
mammoth
>remains,nor any Pleistocene sediments capable of
>containing them were found where Hibben (1943) stated
>that he found them."
>
>The problem here is that no large cats were living in
>the area either 1575 A.D. or 1650 A.D. So obviously
>the spot this team examined could not have been the
>location where the remains were recovered.
>
>E.P. Grondine
>Man and Impact in the Americas
>"geopoetry"! raves Paul Abbott
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Fri 24 Aug 2007 02:29:14 PM PDT