[meteorite-list] Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)

From: Paul <bristolia_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <686854.23035.qm_at_web36203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Alaskan Muck, Tsunamis, and Hibben Revisited Part 3 (Long)

Note: my previous post in this series can be found at:
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-June/035570.html ,
http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-July/036230.html ,
and http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-August/037069.html

In the thread "[meteorite-list] Intro the muck once again",
Mr. Grondine wrote:

"I wrote:

"That point may be placed between say about 45,000
BCE and 8,249 BCE.?"

Paul wrote:

"Contrary to what Mr. Grondine claims above, none of
the projectile points reported by Hibben (1943) has
been dated as being older 11,000 BP."

What I claimed was "between". Last time I checked
11,000 BP came between 45,000 BCE and 8,249 BCE.
But then perhaps its new math, or new archaeology, or
something else. I go with something else."

Again, the fact of the matter is that there is a complete lack of any
evidence for Pale-Indian points older than 11,000 to 13,000 BP,
 if you include recent discoveries in Maryland that were announced
after my last post. Although there artifacts older than 13,000 BP
have been found in the New World, none of them are the type of
Pale-Indian artifacts, which Hibben (1943) discussed having found
in Alaska. Thus, your age range from 45,000 BCE and 8,249 BCE
is completely wrong. This is well documented in innumerable papers
and textbooks, which Mr. Grondine either has not bothered to read
or simply ignores because they completely refute his pet theories.
For the details, a person can go look at:

Haynes, C. V., Fluted Projectile Points: Their Age and Dispersion.
Science. vol. 145, no. 3639, pp. 1408-1413.

Holliday, V. T., 2000, The evolution of Paleoindian geochronology
and typology on the Great Plains. Geoarchaeology. vol. 15, no. 3,
pp. 227-290.

Holliday, V. T., C. V. Haynes, J. L. Hofman and D. J. Meltzer,
1994, Geoarchaeology and Geochronology of the Miami (Clovis)
Site, Southern High Plains of Texas. Quaternary Research. vol. 41,
no. 4, pp. 234-244.

Hibben (1943) is:

Hibben, F. C., 1943, Evidences of Early Man in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, no. 3, pp. 254-259.

More recently, Clovis points dating to about 13,000 BP have been
found in Maryland as discussed in "UD grad student's discovery
could help rewrite prehistory, Univ. of Delaware Daily at;

http://www.udel.edu/PR/UDaily/2008/aug/lowery080807.html

Even these Clovis Points are 35,000 years too young to support
Mr. Grondine's claims of PaleoIndian points being as old as "45,000
BCE".

Mr. Grondine continued,

"Given this level of discussion, one has to wonder
why I carry on - oh yes, its because there was an
impact that killed large numbers of people, and
that and only that makes it worth the time and
aggravation."

I sorry, but given the completely imaginary nature of your impact
and the fictional nature of the "large numbers of people" killed
by your imaginary impact, you are wasting a large amount of time
and aggravation for nothing. The few geologists, whom have seen
your book consider it a boring piece of fiction, which I call
"geopoetry", much like disaster movies such as "Volcano", "10.5",
"The Core", "Aftershock: Earthquake in New York", and "Crack
in the World".

I am wasting my time and effort on this discussion because, a
considerable number of catastrophists deliberately mislead their
readers by falsely citing and portraying Hibben (1943) as a
reliable and credible source of information about the so-called
Alaskan "muck" deposits. The bankruptcy of these catastrophists
illustrated by the fact they have to completely ignore over 60
years of research by world-class scientists and ignore the complete
lack of expertise by Hibben (1943) and his numerous credibility
problems to argue for there being tsunami deposits of any types in
his so-called Alaskan "mucks". The catastrophists, who accept
Hibben (1943) as an authoritative source and rejecting everything
else written in the 60 year since it was published are practicing
what I call "Cafeteria Catastrophism", in which data, papers,
interpretations, and arguments are accepted and rejected like a
person selects food at a cafeteria based on either how tasteful or
distasteful the food is.

Mr. Grondine continued,

"Now it's all very easy to say some 60 years
later to say that "this was the deposit that
Hibbens saw" or that "this was the place he was",
and then make claims about his work. The specific
deposits which Hibbens examined were destroyed
in the same hydraulic mining operation that
exposed them."

The claim is completely false. Any comparison, as I did in my
previous post of the descriptions given by Hibben (1943) of his
"muck" deposits and the Pliocene, Pleistocene, and Holocene
deposits of show that Hibben's so-called "muck" deposits are
exactly the same deposits, which have been studied by the later
researchers in the past sixty years. Although the specific outcrops
are gone, the same deposits can be seen in newer outcrops and
those described in the papers described at the end of this post.
The people reading this list can judge for themselves by
comparing the descriptions given in any of the papers listed at
the end of this post. In addition, the cataclysmic mega-tsunami
hypothesized by Mr. Grondine would have blanketed thousands of
square miles with a very distinctive sedimentary layers that would
be physically impossible for any mining operations and other
human activities to have completely removed.

This topic was discussed in mind-numbing detail in:

http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-August/037069.html

In addition, the imaginary nature of his "muck" deposits. mammoth
bones and archaeological site, which Hibben (1943) reported from
Chinitna Bay is well documented by:

Thorson, R. M., D. C. Plaskett and E. J. Dixon, 1978, Chinitna Bay
cultural resource study-The geology and archeology of the southern
shore of Chinitna Bay, Alaska. University of Alaska Museum,
Fairbanks, Alaska.

and

Thorson, R. M., D. C. Plaskett and E. J. Dixon, 1980, A reported
early-man site adjacent to southern Alaska's continental shelf:
A geologic solution to an archeologic enigma. Quaternary
Research. vol. 13, no. 2, pp. 259-273.
doi:10.1016/0033-5894(80)90033-2

Mr. Grondine continued,

But what I find hard to accept is why Hibbens
would lie, when those who were there with him
were still alive. And why would he lie about
what he saw?"

If Mr. Grondine would take the time to read through my last post,
he would find that I answered this questions at least twice. First,
having spent all of his time working in the dry, hot climates of the
America Southwest, Dr. Hibben was simply functionally illiterate
in his understanding of cold-climate Arctic periglacial processes
that created his so-called "muck" deposits. As a result, he
completely misunderstood and misinterpreted what he saw.

Second, if Mr. Grondine would read, Preston (1995), he would
find that I am not the person, who is arguing that Hibben lied.
Rather, the allegations of fraud were raised by paleontologists,
geologists, and archaeologists, who directly with worked Hibben.
The numerous irregularities and contradictions in Hibben's
published research, which they interpreted to be evidence of fraud,
from what I can see, could just as easily be explained sloppiness,
poor management, and gross incompetence on Hibben's part. He
can find the answer to his question in Preston (1995).

I pointed out Preston (1995) because, in order to fully evaluate
Hibben (1943), people need to know that he is a very controversial
figure in American archaeology and not as highly regarded by
conventional archaeologists as Mr. Grondine falsely portrays him
to be.

References Cited:

Preston, Douglas, 1995, The mystery of Sandia Cave. The New Yorker.
vol. 71, pp. 66-72 (June 12, 1995)

People can find more detail at:

http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2007-August/037069.html

Mr. Grondine asked:

"Two other points:

1)None of the known major mega-tsunamis caused by
volcanic island landslides seem to have shown up in
any of these studies Paul cites, and"

Because Fairbanks, Alaska lies approximately 350-370 miles from
Beaufort Sea/Arctic Ocean; approximately 390 miles from Norton
Sound; approximately 420 miles from Kotzebue Sound and
approximately 340-360 miles from the Gulf of Alaska. That is too
far inland for the magnitude of mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic
island landslides to have traveled inland. In addition, on three
sides of Fairbanks, Alaska, there are mountain ranges, which
being thousands of feet high, would effectively block the magnitude
of mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic island landslides from reaching
Fairbanks. The mega-tsunamis caused by volcanic island landslides,
as large as they are, simply are too small to flow over mountains,
which are thousands of feet high and travel hundreds of miles
inland. As a result, there is no geologic record of them having
reached Fairbanks.

In sharp contrast, numerous, well-documented examples of multiple
sedimentary layers created by mega-tsunamis / tsunamis, depending
on how a person defines them, have been described in the scientific
literature from sediments of salt marshes, coastal lagoons, and
coastal lakes, which occur along the Pacific coast of North America.
These sedimentary layers, called ?event beds?, are excellent
examples of the quite distinctive nature of mega-tsunamis /
tsunamis deposits, which any geologist would be able to readily
recognize in the Fairbanks area had Mr. Grondine's imaginary
mega-tsunamis actually occurred. These studies demonstrate that
the sedimentary layers created by a mega-tsunamis are completely
different in their grain-size, sedimentary structure, bedding,
and other characteristics from the layers within the Alaskan
?muck?, which Hibben (2943) completely misidentified as having been
created by some ancient catastrophe. A "few" of the many scientific
publications, which described the physical character of the event
beds created by mega-tsunamis / tsunamis and found along the Pacific
coast are:

Atwater, B. F., A. R. Nelson, J. J. Clague, G. A. Carver, D. K.
Yamaguchi, P. T. Bobrowski, J. Bourgeois, M. E. Darienzo, W. C.
Grant, E. Hemphill-Haley, H. M. Kelsey, G. C. Jacoby, S. P.
Nishenko, S. P. Palmer, C. D. Peterson, and M. A. Reinhart, 1995,
Summary of coastal geologic evidence for past great earthquakes at
the Cascadia subduction zone. Earthquake Spectra, vol. 11, no. 1,
pp. 1-18.

Bobrowski, P.T. and J. J. Clague, 1995, Tsunami deposits beneath
tidal marshes on Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada. in
Tsunami deposits: Geologic warnings of future inundation,
University of Washington, May 22-23, p.12.

Bourgeois, J., and S. Y. Johnson, 2001, Geologic evidence of
earthquakes at the Snohomish delta, Washington, in the past
1200 yr. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 113,
no. 4, pp. 482-494.

Bourgeois, J., T. K. Pinegina V. Ponomareva, and N. Zaretskaia,
2006, Holocene tsunamis in the southwestern Bering Sea, Russian
Far East, and their tectonic implications. Geological Society of
America Bulletin. vol. 118, no. 3, pp. 449-463.

Clague, J. J., P. T. Bobrowski, T. S. and Hamilton,1994, A sand
sheet deposited by tsunami at Port Alberni, British Columbia.
Estuarine, Coastal, and Shelf Science. vol. 38, pp. 413-421.

Clague, J. J., P. T. Bobrowski, and I. Hutchinson, 2000, A review
of Geological records of large tsunamis at Vancouver Island,
British Columbia, and implications for hazard: Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol.19, pp. 849-863.

Clague, J. J., I. Hutchinson, R. W. Mathews, and R. T. Patterson,
1999, Evidence for late Holocene tsunamis at Catala Lake, British
Columbia. Journal of Coastal Research. vol. 15, no. 1, pp.45-60.

Clague, J. J. and P. T. Bobrowski, 1994, Tsunami deposits beneath
tidal marshes on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Geological
Society of America Bulletin. vol. 106, pp.1293-1303.

Clague, J. J. and P. T. Bobrowski, 1994b, Evidence for a large
earthquake and tsunami 100-400 years ago on western Vancouver
Island, British Columbia: Quaternary Research, vol. 41, pp. 176-184.

Kelsey, H. M., R. C. Witter, and M. Polenz, 1993, Cascadia
paleoseismic record derived from late Holocene fluvial and lake
sediments, Sixes River valley, Cape Blanco, south coastal Oregon.
EOS (Transactions, American Geophysical Union) vol. 74, p. 199.

Kelsey, H. M., A. R. Nelson, and E. Hemphill-Haley, 1995,
Properties and depositional characteristics of tsunamis in south
coastal Oregon from a paired coastal-lake and marsh study: in
Tsunami Deposits: Geologic Warnings of Future inundation,
University of Washington.

Kelsey, H. M., R. C. Witter, and E. Hemphill-Haley 2002, Plate-
boundary earthquakes and tsunamis of the past 5500 yr, Sixes
River estuary, southern Oregon. Geological Society of America
Bulletin. vol. 114, no. 3, pp. 298-314.

Kelsey, H. M., A. R. Nelson, E. Hemphill-Haley, E., and R. C.
Witter, 2005, Tsunami history of an Oregon coastal lake reveals a
4600 yr record of great earthquakes on the Cascadia subduction
zone. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 117, no. 7/8,
pp. 1009-1032.

Kuhn, G. G., 2005, Paleoseismic features as indicators of
earthquake hazards in North Coastal, San Diego County,
California, USA. Engineering Geology. vol. 80, pp. 115-150

Lopez, G.I. and P. T. Bobrowski, 2001, A 14,000 year old record
from a coastal freshwater lake: Sedimentological evidence for
tsunamigenic events on the west coast of Vancouver Island, British
Columbia, Canada: Proceedings of the International Tsunami
Symposium 2001, Seattle, Washington, August 7-10, 2001,
pp. 493-502.

Nelson, A. R., A. C. Asquith, and W. C. Grant, 2004, Great
Earthquakes and Tsunamis of the Past 2000 Years at the Salmon
River Estuary, Central Oregon Coast, USA. Bulletin of the
Seismological Society of America. vol. 94, no. 4, pp. 1276-1292.

Ollerhead, J., D. J. Huntley, A. R. Nelson, and H. M. Kelsey, 2001,
Optical dating of tsunami-laid sand from an Oregon coastal lake
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, pp. 1915-1926.

Peters, R., B. Jaffe, G. Gelfenbaum, and C. Peterson, 2003, Cascadia
Tsunami Deposit Database 2003. United States Geological Survey
Open-File Report 03-13.

Peters, R., B. Jaffe, and G. Gelfenbaum, 2007, Distribution and
sedimentary characteristics of tsunami deposits along the Cascadia
margin of western North America. Sedimentary Geology. vol. 200,
pp. 372-386

Peterson, C. S., and D. Qualman, 1999, Establishing long inundation
distances of prehistoric tsunami from siliciclastic and bio-
geochemical tracers in open-coast, beach plain wetlands, central
Cascadia margin, USA: EOS (Transactions, American Geophysical
Union) vol. 80, no. 46. pp. 520-521.

Sherrod, B. L., 2001, Evidence for earthquake-induced subsidence
about 1100 yr ago in coastal marshes of southern Puget Sound,
Washington. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 113,
no. 10, p. 1299-1311.

Williams, H. and I. Hutchinson, 2000, Stratigraphic and microfossil
evidence for late Holocene Tsunamis at Swantown Marsh, Whidbey
Island, Washington. Quaternary Research, vol. 54, pp. 218-227.

Anyone looking at the above publications, would find:

1. mega-tsunamis / tsunamis of any size leave behind deposits that
are quite distinctive and readily recognizable by any educated
geologist. A person does **not** have to be an expert in either
tsunamis or mega-tsunamis to be able to recognize them with the
unaided eye.

2. Conventional geologists have known about the distinctive nature of
mega-tsunamis / tsunamis for the past 10-12 years.

3. If mega-tsunamis / tsunamis deposits exist within the Neogene,
Pleistocene, and Holocene sediments, which Hibben (1943)
collectively calls "muck", they would be readily recognizable and
quite obvious to any conventional geologist.

4. The deposits of mega-tsunamis / tsunamis are completely different
in their physical characteristics from the layers within the Alaskan
?muck, which Hibben (1943) incorrectly interpreted as having been
created by some sort of catastrophic event.

Another problem, which Mr. Grondine completely ignores is that
paleoenvironmental records extending back into the last, Wisconsin,
glacial maximum have been recovered from cores taken from dozens
of lakes and bogs within Alaska. Some of these cores often provide
a detailed record of paleovegetation, paleoenvironment, and
sedimentation in these lakes and bogs over the past 14,000 years.
In none of these cores is there any evidence of either an event bed,
which can interpreted as having been deposited by either a mega-
tsunamis / tsunamis or the cataclysmic environmental damage that
the mega-tsunamis, which Mr. Grondine argues happened, would have
created.

Looking at the data from these studies, I have to call Mr.
Grondine?s mega-tsunamis hypothesis, the ?Magic Mega-tsunamis
Theory?. Mr. Grondine?s mega-tsunamis has to be ?magical? in manner
in which it is large enough to obliterate entire cultures and
overtop mountains, which are thousands of feet high, yet not leave
behind any event beds, as left behind by much smaller earthquake
generated mega-tsunamis / tsunamis along the Pacific Coast of North
America, in the numerous core, which have been studies for
reconstructing Alaskan paleoenvironment. Mr. Grondine?s mega-
tsunamis also have to be ?magical? in the manner in which they
allegedly powerful enough to have obliterated North America
megafauna yet left Alaskan vegetation completely untouched as
demonstrated by the pollen and other data from the same cores. In
case of these cores, absence of evidence for an cataclysmic event
as large as Mr. Grondine?s mega-tsunamis is clear proof of absence.

Some of these paleoenvironmental records are discussed in:

Alfimov, A. V., and D. I. Berman, 2001, Beringian climate during
the Late Pleistocene and Holocene. Quaternary Science Reviews.
vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 127-134.

Ager, T. A., 1975, Late Quaternary environmental history of the
Tanana Valley, Alaska. Institute of Polar Studies Report no. 54.
Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.

Ager, T. A. 1980. A 16,000 year pollen record from St. Michael
Island, Norton Sound, western Alaska. In American Quaternary
 Association, Sixth Biennial Meeting, Abstracts and Program,
18-20 August 1980, P3, Institute for Quaternary Studies,
University of Maine, Orono.

Ager, T. A. 1982. Vegetational history of western Alaska during
the Wisconsin glacial interval and the Holocene. Pp. 75-93 in
Hopkins, D. M., J. V. Matthews, Jr., C. E. Schweger, and S. B.
Young, eds., , Paleoecology of Beringia, Academic Press,
New York.

Ager, T. A., and L.B. Brubaker, 1985, Quaternary palynology and
vegetational history of Alaska. Pp. 353-384 in V. M. Bryant, Jr.
and R. G. Holloway, eds. Pollen records of late Quaternary North
American sediments. American Association of Stratigraphic
Palynologists Foundation, Dallas, Texas.

Ager, T. A., 1989, History of late Pleistocene and Holocene
vegetation in the Copper River basin, south-central Alaska. in Pp.
89-92, L. D. Carter, T. D. Hamilton, and J. P. Galloway, eds.,
Late Cenozoic History of the Interior Basins of Alaska and the
Yukon: U.S. Geological Survey Circular no. 1026.

http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/cir/cir1026

Ager, T. A., 2000. Postglacial vegetation history of the Kachemak
Bay area, Cook Inlet, south-central Alaska. Pp. 147-165, in K.
Kelley, and L. Gough, eds. U.S. Geological Survey Professional
Paper no. 1615. http://pubs.usgs.gov/pp/p1615/

Ager, T. A., 2003, Late Quaternary vegetation and climate history
of the central Bering land bridge from St. Michael Island, western
Alaska, Quaternary Research. v. 60, no. 1, pp. 19-32.

http://esp.cr.usgs.gov/research/alaska/PDF/Ager2003QR.pdf

Anderson, P. M., 1982, Reconstructing the Past: The synthesis
of Archaeological and Palynological data, Northern Alaska and
Northwestern Canada. Unpublished PhD. dissertation, Brown
University, Providence, Rhode Island.

Anderson, P. M., 1985, Late Quaternary vegetational change in
the Kotzebue Sound area, northwestern Alaska. Quaternary Research.
vol. 24, no. 3, pp. 307-321.

Anderson, P. M., 1988, Late quaternary pollen records from the
Kobuk and Noatak river drainages, northwestern Alaska. Quaternary
Research. vol. 29, no. 3, pp. 263-276.

Anderson, P. M., and L. B. Brubaker, 1988, Vegetation history of
northcentral Alaska: A mapped summary of the late-Quaternary pollen
data. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 13, no. 1, pp. 71?92.

Anderson, P. M., and L.B. Brubaker, 1993, Holocene vegetation and
climate histories of Alaska. Pp. 386-400 in H. E. Wright, Jr.,
J. E. Kutzbach, T. Webb, III, W. F. Ruddiman, F. A. Street-Parrott,
and P. J. Bartlein, eds. Global Climates since the Last Glacial
Maximum, Chapter 15. University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis,
Minnesota.

Anderson, P. M., and L. B. Brubaker, 1994, Vegetation history of
northcentral Alaska: a mapped summary of late Quaternary pollen
data. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 13, no. 1, pp. 71-92.

Anderson, P. M., P. J. Bartlein and L. B. Brubaker, 1994, Late
Quaternary History of Tundra Vegetation in Northwestern Alaska
Quaternary Research. vol. 41, no. 3, pp. 306-315.

Anderson, P. M., R. E. Reanier, and L. B. Brubaker, 1990. A
14,000-year pollen record from Sithylemenkat lake, north-central
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 33, no. 3, pp. 400-404.?

Anatoly V. L., P. M. Anderson, W. R. Eisner, L. G. Ravako, D. M.
Hopkins, L. B. Brubaker, P. A. Colinvaux and M, C. Miller, 1993,
Late Quaternary Lacustrine Pollen Records from Southwestern
Beringia. Quaternary Research. vol. 39, no. 3, pp. 314-324.

Axford, Y., and D. S. Kaufman, 2004, Late Glacial and Holocene
Glacier and Vegetation Fluctuations at Little Swift Lake,
Southwestern Alaska, U.S.A. Arctic, Antarctic, vol. 36, no. 2,
pp. 139-146

http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~axford/axford_et_al_2004.pdf

Bigelow, N. H., and M. E. Edwards. 2001, A 14,000 yr
paleoenvironmental record from Windmill Lake, Central Alaska:
evidence for high-frequency climatic and vegetation fluctuations.
Quaternary Science Reviews 20, no. 1-2, pp. 203-215.

Brubaker, L. B., H. L. Garfinkel, and M. E. Edwards, 1983, A
late-Wisconsin and Holocene vegetation history from the central
Brooks Range: implications for Alaskan paleoecology. Quaternary
Research. vol. 20, no. XX, pp. 194-214.

Brubaker, L. B., P. M. Anderson and F. S. Hu, 2001, Vegetation
ecotone dynamics in Southwest Alaska during the Late Quaternary
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 175-188.

Carlson, L. J., and B. P. Finney, 2004, A 13,000-year history of
vegetation and environmental change at Jan Lake, east-central
Alaska. The Holocene, vol. 14, no. 6, pp. 818-827

Cwynar, L. C., 1982, A Late-Quaternary Vegetation History from
Hanging Lake, Northern Yukon. Ecological Monographs, vol. 52,
no. 1, pp. 1-24.

Edwards, M. E., and Edward D. Barker, 1994, Climate and vegetation
in northeastern Alaska 18,000 yr B.P.-present. Palaeogeography
Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, vol. 109, no. 2-4, pp. 127-135

Hansen, B. C. S. and D. R. Engstrom, 1996, Vegetation History
of Pleasant Island, Southeastern Alaska, since 13,000 yr B.P.
Quaternary Research. vol. 46, no. 2, pp. 161-175.

Heusser, C. J., 1952, Pollen profiles from southeast Alaska.
Ecological Monographs. vol. 22, no. 4, pp. 331-352.

Heusser, C. J., 1955, Pollen profiles from Prince William Sound and
Southeast Kenai Peninsula, Alaska. Ecology 36, no.2, pp. 185-202.

Heusser, C. J., 1983a, Pollen diagrams from the Shumagin islands and
adjacent Alaskan peninsula, southwestern Alaska. Boreas. vol. 12,
pp. 279-295.

Heusser, C. J. 1983b. Vegetational history of the northwestern
United States including Alaska. in pp. 239-258, S. C. Porter, ed.
Late Quaternary. Environments of the United States, vol. 1: The
Late-Pleistocene, University Minnesota Press.

Livingstone, D. A., 1955, Some pollen profiles from arctic Alaska.
Ecology. vol. 36, no. 4, pp. 587-600.

Matthews, J. V., Jr., 1974a, Quaternary environments at Cape Deceit
(Seward Peninsula, Alaska):Evolution of a tundra ecosystem.
Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 85, no. 9, pp.
1353-1384.

Matthews, J. V., Jr., 1974b. Wisconsin environment of interior
Alaska: pollen and macrofossil analysis of a 27 meter core from
the Isabella Basin (Fairbanks, Alaska). Canadian Journal of
Earth Sciences. vol. 11, pp. 828-841.

Oswald, L. B., L. B. Brubaker, F.S. Hu, and G.W. Kling, nd, Late
Quaternary Environmental History of the Toolik Lake Area

http://ecosystems.mbl.edu/staffweb/jhobbie/chapter3_watershed%20history.doc.

Pisaric, M. F. J., G. M. MacDonald, A. A. Velichko and L. C.
Cwynar, 2001, The Lateglacial and Postglacial vegetation history of
the northwestern limits of Beringia, based on pollen, stomate and
tree stump evidence. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3,
pp. 235-245.

Shackleton, J., 1982, Environmental histories from Whitefish and
Imuruk lakes, Seward Peninsula, Alaska. Institute of Polar
Studies Report no. 76, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio.

The above peer-reviewed, scientific publications are a sample of
an enormous amount of published research, which together completely
refutes and demolishes Mr. Grondine?s mega-tsunamis hypothesis for
the creation of any part of Hibben?s Alaskan ?muck?. Other
catastrophists, who use the Alaskan ?muck? as evidence of a
terminal Pleistocene mega-tsunamis, fail to mention any of this
literature because they are either utterly ignorant of its
existence or, as a form of what alternative scientists call
?knowledge filtering/ filtration?, simply do not want their
readers to know that there exists an abundant amount of evidence,
which contradicts and, often demolishes, their hypotheses.

Even more such paleoenvironmental records can found at:

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/ftp/ndp011/alaska/alaska.ref

Detailed descriptions of the distinctive sedimentary layers, which
an actual mega-tsunamis would have left behind in any lake or bog
deposits can be found in:

Bondevik S, 2003, Storegga tsunami sand in peat below the Tapes
beach ridge at Haroy, western Norway, and its possible relation
to an early Stone Age settlement. Boreas. vol. 32, no. 3,
pp. 476?483.

Bondevik S, J. I. Svendsen, J. and Mangerud J. 1997. Tsunami
sedimentary facies deposited by the Storegga tsunami in shallow
marine basins and coastal lakes, western Norway. Sedimentology.
vol. 44, no. 6, pp. 1115?1131.

Bondevik, S., J. I., Svendsen, G. Johnsen, J. Mangerud, and P. E.
Kaland, 1997, The Storegga tsunami along. the Norwegian coast,
its age and runup. Boreas vol. 26, no. 1, pp. 29-53.

Bondevik S, Mangerud J, Dawson S, Dawson A, Lohne O. 2003. Record
breaking height for 8000-year-old tsunami in the North Atlantic.
Eos. vol. 84, no. 31, pp. 289?291.

Mr. Grondine also asked:

"2) While Paul has commented on the lack of
mega-fauna remains in the new studies, he has
not comment on the what was it, 30 or 90 feet?
of marine sediment overlying that the
spearpoint Hibbens retrieved from that cat's
ribcage."

First, I did not comment on the lack of megafauna in Hibben?s
?muck? as Mr. Grondine falsely claims. According to the "new
studies", some of which are listed at the end of this post, they
clearly mention the presence of abundant megafauna remains within
the Neogene, Quaternary, and Holocene deposits, which Hibben (1943)
collectively refers to as "muck". In the pre-Sangamon, pre-Eva
Forest beds deposits, these remains consist only of bones. The
mummified mammal remains are found only in the ?muck? deposits,
which overlie the Eva Forest bed and also locally contain abundant
bones. The Holocene deposits lack any extinct megafauna, although
they contain other fossil bones and the occasional mummified
caribou and scattered mummified squirrels.

Second, it sounds like Mr. Grondine is living in a different planet
then me. :-) :-) I say this because the 30 to 90 feet of marine
sediments, on which he complains about me not commenting, within
the Fairbanks area, exists only within Mr. Grondine's very vivid and
fertile imagination. It is impossible for me to comment on
something, which does not exist in the real world. Hibben (1943) did
not report finding 30 to 90 feet of marine deposits in his so-called
"muck" deposits within the Fairbank, Alaska, area. In fact, he
described the Fairbanks ?muck? as consisting predominately of loess
as when Hibben (1943) stated:

??The deposits known as muck may be definitely
described, in the opinion of the writer, as loess
material. All characteristics seem to indicate a
wind-borne origin from comparatively local
sources, as the material resembles local bedrock.
The outwash plains of the local glaciations are
likely points of origin for this material.?

Finally, in case of Chinitna Bay, Hibben (1943) reported finding
only some mammoth bones, which nobody else have been able to find
in that area despite having searched diligently for them. Hibben
(1943) mentions finding neither a "cat's ribcage" nor any artifacts
associated with the mammoth bones that he reported finding at
Chinitna Bay.

In [meteorite-list] holocene start impacts, Mr. Grondine wrote:

"Thanks for the note:

http://www.nsf.gov/discoveries/disc_summ.jsp?cntn_id=109768&org=NSF&from=news

?Now why didn't this layer show up in those alaskan
muck studies which you cited to us?? For that matter,
why didn't the signs of the known landslide and
seismically caused mega-tsunamis show up in them? My
guess is that it was inadequate attention to detail;
as the saying goes..."

Presuming only for sake of argument that there is any Iridium,
of shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds,
buckyballs, Heluim3, and other impact indicators to be found in the
in the Alaskan ?muck? in the first place, the reason they have not
been found so far is that, unlike the deposits of a mega-tsunamis /
tsunamis, they are completely invisible to the naked eye and require
either the analyses of the samples using microscopic, petrographic,
or geochemical techniques to detect them. It is simply impossible
for anyone to be able visually detect with the naked eye whether or
not shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds,
buckyballs, Heluim3, or any other indicator of an impact are present
in a sediment. I would challenge Mr. Grondine to explain how anyone
can determine the presence of shocked quartz, Iridium, metallic
microspherules, nano-diamonds, buckyballs, Heluim3, in a sample of
loess or any other sediment simply by looking at it with his or her
own unaided eyes. I would predict that neither Mr. Grondine can
explain how to do this because it is an impossible task for anyone
to do.

In complete contrast, a mega-tsunamis capable of washing hundreds
of miles inland and up and over thousand-foot high mountains to
reach the Fairbanks area would certainly have created a blatantly
obvious blanket of sediment over thousands of square miles that is
quite visible to the unaided eye. As documented in numerous papers
listed above, such a mega-tsunamis deposit will be quite different
from the layers created by periglacial processes, which Hibben
(1943) misinterpreted to be catastrophic origin. If a mega-tsunamis
/ tsunamis generated by subduction zone earthquakes leaves very
distinct and recognizable deposits, then a mega-tsunamis generated
by an event even more cataclysmic event would have left very
similar and quite distinctive deposits. Completely unlike shocked
quartz, Iridium, metallic microspherules, nano-diamonds, buckyballs,
and Heluim3, such deposits will be quite visible and easily
recognized as being anomalous to the unaided eye of any
conventional geologist within the loessial, fine-grained
Alaskan ?muck? deposits.

Finally, as previously discuss, the mega-tsunamis generated by
seismic events and landslides are quite obviously and simply
not powerful enough to have washed 350 to 420 miles inland and
up and over entire mountain ranges to reach the area of Fairbanks,
Alaska.

List of papers discussing the age, origin, and character of the
"muck" deposits of Hibben (1943) and completely demolish
the interpretations made by Mr. Grondine and other catastrophists
are:

Berger, Glenn W., 2003, Luminescence chronology of Late
Pleistocene loess-paleosol and tephra sequences near Fairbanks,
Alaska. Quaternary Research. vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 70-83.

Bettis, E. A., Muhs, D. R., Robert, H. M., and Wintle, A. G., 2003,
Last Glacial loess in the conterminous USA. Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19, pp. 1907-1946

Frenchen, M., and Yamskikh, 1995, Upper Pleistocene loess
stratigraphy in the southern Yenisei Siberia area. Journal
of the Geological Society of London. vol. 156, pp. 515-525.

Gutherie, R. D., 1990, Frozen Fauna of the Mammoth Steppes:
The Story of Blue Babe. University of Chicago Press, Chicago,
Illinois.

Hibben, Frank C., 1942, Evidences of early man in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 8, pp. 254-259.

Hibben, Frank C., 1946. Lost Americans. Crowell. New York,
New York.

Lagroix, F., and Banerjee, S. K., 2004, The regional and temporal
significance of primary aeolian magnetic fabrics preserved in
Alaskan loess. Earth and Planetary Science Letters. vol. 225,
pp. 379- 395

Lagroix, F., and Banerjee, S. K., 2006, Discussion of "Geochemical
evidence for the origin of late Quaternary loess in central Alaska"
Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences. vol. 43, no. 12, pp. 1887-1890.

Muhs, D. R. and Budahn, J. R., 2007, Geochemical evidence for
the origin of late Quaternary loess in central Alaska. vol. 43,
no. 3, pp. 323-337.

Muhs, D. R., Ager T. A., and Beg?t, J. E., 2001, Vegetation
and paleoclimate of the last interglacial period, central Alaska
Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 20, no. 1-3, pp. 41-61.

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., Bettis, E. A., III, McGeehin, J., Been,
J. M., Beg?t, J. E., Pavich, M. J., Stafford, T. W., Jr., and
Stevens, D. S. P., 2003, Stratigraphy and paleoclimatic
significance of late Quaternary loess-paleosol sequences of the
last interglacial-glacial cycle in central Alaska: Quaternary Science
Reviews. vol. 22, pp. 1947-1986.

Muhs, D. R., McGeehin, J. P, Beann, J., and Fisher, E., 2004,
Holocene loess deposition and soil formation as competing
processes, Matanuska Valley, southern Alaska. Quaternary
Research. vol. 61, no. 3, pp. 265-276

Muhs, D. R., Ager, T. A., and Beg?t, J., 2004, Stratigraphy and
palaeoclimatic significance of Late Quaternary loess-palaeosol
sequences of the Last Interglacial-Glacial cycle in central
Alaska. Quaternary Science Reviews. vol. 22, no. 18-19,
pp. 1947-1986.

McDowell, P. F., and Edwards, M. E., 2001, Evidence of
Quaternary climatic variations in a sequence of loess and
related deposits at Birch Creek, Alaska: implications for the
Stage 5 climatic chronology. Quaternary Science Reviews,
vol. 20, no.1-3, pp. 63-76.

Pewe, T. L., 1955, Origin of the upland silt near Fairbanks,
Alaska. Geological Society of America Bulletin. vol. 66,
no. 6, pp. 699-724.

Pewe, T. L., 1975a, Quaternary Geology of Alaska. U.S.
Geological Survey Professional Paper 835, 145 pp.
http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp835

Pewe, T. L., 1975b, Quaternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in
Central Alaska. U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper
no. 862, 32 pp. http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp862

Pewe, T. L., 1989, Quaternary stratigraphy of the Fairbanks
area, Alaska. in Late Cenozoic History of the Interior Basins
of Alaska and the Yukon. U.S. Geological Survey Circular
no. 1026, pp. 72-77.

Pewe, T. L., Berger, G. W., Westgate, J. A., Brown, P. A., and
Leavitt, S. W., 1997, Eva Interglacial Forest Bed, Unglaciated
East-Central Alaska. Geological Society of America Special
Paper no. 319, 54 pp.

Rainey, F., 1940, Archaeological Investigations in Alaska.
American Antiquity. vol. 5, pp. 299-308.

Rutter, N. W., Rokosh, D., Evans, M. E., Little, E. C., Chlachula,
J., and Velichko, A., 2003, Correlation and interpretation of
paleosols and loess across European Russia and Asia over
the last interglacial-glacial cycle. Quaternary Research.
vol. 60, no. 1, Pages 101-109.

Westgate, J. A., Stemper, B. A., and Pewe, T. L., 1990, A 3
m.y. record of Pliocene-Pleistocene loess in interior Alaska.
Geology. vol. 18, no. 9, p. 858-861.

Westgate, John A., Preece, Shari J., and Pewe, Troy L., 2003,
The Dawson Cut Forest Bed in the Fairbanks area, Alaska, is
about two million years old. Quaternary Research. vol. 60,
no. 1, Pages 2-8.

Yours,

Paul H.





       
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Received on Mon 20 Aug 2007 01:03:58 PM PDT