[meteorite-list] Vision Rock: Final Answer?

From: E J <jonee_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu May 25 09:54:17 2006
Message-ID: <4475236A.80900_at_epix.net>

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth"... Jack Nicholson in "A
Few Good Men"

Geeeezzzzze This started out as a fight I had no dog in; now it is
so beyond worth dealing with, it is a Dog I have no fight left in. Next
time I speak up tell me to remain /in stfu/.

I posted lengthy replies regarding the Vision Rock with specifics--
why,what, and where, underpinned my statements with verifiable
information. So this talk about trying to squash scientific inquiry is
rubbish. It is clear to me that what I wrote wasn't read anyway. I have
been chided for things which I didn't do and vice versa. And let me
clarify, It wasn't so much the issue of meteorite lab time as it was
about shooting down one's personal credibility by sending a obvious
meteorwrong off to a lab and becoming another statistic in their eyes of
the meteorite experts that don't know Jack.

It is hard to chop lengthy details into sound bites when one is
answering complicated questions. Even harder to communicate technical
details when the audience is not sure where to begin nor what questions
to ask. What the Vision Rock is "specifically or technically" isn't an
easy answer. And the owner would not likely understand anyway. It is
fairly easy to get in the ball park of identification but I am not going
to tell anyone go to the Palermo Mine or the St Lawrence County Mining
district of New York or to look down in the creek bed. I gave anyone
that read it hints enough. Few here likely know that many minerals are
only discernible at the molecular level. You look at their sample and
tell them it is calcite and they argue that you are wrong because they
bought if from a dealer that said it is ferro-mangnoancalcite. There
are perhaps 20-30 minerals in what is called the Kaolin-Serpentine group
and one can only reliably identify 4 - 8 of them by sight alone. There
are 250 minerals from New Hampshire so that should narrow one's search
(:-) Gary is trying to identify a rock and that is not the same as a
mineral. So now add another 8-12 rock types to evaluate and you can
start to see the scope of effort to answer "what is this exactly"? What
is the difference between marble, hornfels, pegmatite, gneiss, and
basalt? In some places?.... as little as about 30 feet.

I think I was the only poster that attempted to answer Gary's technical
issues. I believe I have been a strong supporter for him,
understanding he is in a dilemma . We are differing in approach, but to
me, support doesn't mean being a yes man. I believe he has undertaken
his own quest to understand and his first meteorite identification case
is complicated beyond most everyone's experience. In the old days list
the members were not bickering about TKWs and pairings but were generous
with their technical knowledge. Sorry I am used to the old list where
folks actually addressed complicated answers. I know I come across as
pedantical but I am not. There are already those rolling on the floor
laughing and writing rebuttals without finishing what I've said.

This whole Vision Quest affair is ultimately moot for no amount of
technical proof is going to resolve this situation because the owner
is seeking a specific answer and not "the truth"and any answer other
than a Martian meteorite challenges his vision. (Do the affairs of
Boggy Creek or Frass Martian Grasshoppers stir anyone's memory?) I
believe the owner is pressing him( Gary) to prove it isn't a
meteorite. I believe Gary's willingness to tackle this problem has put
him in a no-win situation. Time will tell one way or another.

So let me back off everything I have said about the possible
identification of this rock as I don't want to restrict anyone's right
to conduct an investigation in a manner of their choosing. Maybe is far
more rewarding to exude enthusiasm and dream dreams than to deal with
the realities and probabilities of Ockhum's Razor.( Yes, I don't follow
minimum message length theory in practice). If the Vision Rock owner is
happy with the identification of a hematite nodule, magnetite schist, or
a sheared off piece of sub continental-shelf sea-floor--that is what is
most important, right? But the next round of Ebay auctions might read
"Frands..und Viures... Let me share with you another defeat for the
Priests of Baal...G*d sent me an unbeliever meteorite expert and not
even he could prove me wrong! He tried to trick me with words but I
said Get Behind me Satan and sent him packing!! What G*d hath said let
no mortal man dispute!"

On a side note, why did no one address the the question about knowing
why this can't be a Martian Meteorite? I have a good idea why no one
spoke up but it is only a close guess and you know the cliche "close is
only good for horseshoes and hand grenades". Very few seem interested
in science anymore--too frequently it is an inconvenient truth that gets
in the way of our poker game so we really aren't interested. We prefer
to argue esoteric "pin-head" things like who has the largest weight of
NWA XXX rather then understand the reason NWAYYY has reset certain
theories about early solar system formation. We don't give a rat's
behind about the science we only want to own a piece for bragging
rights. We are a sound bite society.

I've lost track of the exact number of meteor-suspects I have reviewed,
but I have more than a pocket full . I begin all my spiels with " You
will most likely not like what I tell you--even before I see the rock, I
want you to know I'll be honest with you. If you do have a rock I can't
exclude from being a meteorite. I'll tell you where to go next." I
point out features which are not found in meteorites and what the
feature would look like if it were a meteorite. ( I mentioned
meteorites in my last post which shared some common traits and before
that mentioned why the composition of the Vision Rock shared some
mineral elements with meteorites,tyvm). By-in-large, most of the owners
appreciate a specific technical answer as to what their object is , and
why it isn't a star rock. Then there are those owners where bursting
their dream bubble is a psyche shattering experience --I don't
exaggerate. One gent comes to mind that has an egg-sized basalt with
vesicles lined with gold paint and glitter. No matter what I said, he
bought it from a jeweler and "the jeweler is famous must know meteorites
better than I because I couldn't explain how the gold was only in the
holes and not all over"..DUH paint brush? He never spoke to me again.
He was unable to deal with the fact he paid several hundred dollars for
a doctored rock, that wasn't even a meteorite. For him it was easier to
cope by continuing to call it a meteorite. Ever meet any of those
folks? Frankly, I'd rather handle rattlesnake (I was going to say
scorpion it might be misconstrued and I am off that fight too) than
take my chances with another meteor wrong owner.

Elton
Received on Wed 24 May 2006 11:24:26 PM PDT