[meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was Some..meteorite finds.

From: Michael Farmer <meteoritehunter_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat May 20 13:01:24 2006
Message-ID: <20060520170122.1AB978D67D_at_mailwash5.pair.com>

Armando,

You seem to have deep problems of inadequacy.
Let's recap what occurred in Ourique just so you can feel stupid again.


The Ourique meteorite fell on December 28, 1998.
I heard about it in APRIL 1999, nearly 5 MONTHS later.
I jumped on a plane the next day and upon arriving in Ourique, I found over
3.5 KILOGRAMS of fragments scattered all over the ground.
I purchased another 6 kilograms of fragments from nearly 50 people, since
the entire village had come to the fall site and collected pieces.

The government of Portugal went to the site days after the fall, and
collected the main mass. They left the rest of the meteorite laying in the
mud to rust away in the wet, humid Portuguese winter weather.

Armando then called me a thief and a pirate for "stealing" the national
treasure that the Portuguese government left in the mud since they had their
largest piece, it seemed that the fragments were junk to them.

Armando is jealous that an American could come from the other side of the
world when he was too lazy to drive an hour or two to d what I did.

We call that, SOUR GRAPES in English.

I like the thought of being a pirate, as a child I loved pirates like I
think most people do. It is an exciting and romantic thought.
A thief I am not. I paid the local people and they happily sold me their
stones.
So actually, instead of the fragments being lost forever in old farmhouses,
they are now distributed to museum and private collections all over the
world.

And they all lived happily ever after, except Armando, who died a bitter
man, calling people names because they succeeded, where he failed.

Michael Farmer



-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Armando
Afonso
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:12 AM
To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was
Some..meteorite finds.

In 1968, an Ataxite of 25 kg falled in Alandroal, not far of the popular
Ourique.
The authorities came imediatly, and confiscated the stone, to store it
temporarily at the local prison.
Days after, it was moved to the national museum, were it was analysed and
where it remains in display today.
This is the meteoritic reference for thousands of portuguese studants.
I still remember, when I was a kid, of the impact it made on me.
I have al the reasons to be convicted, then, that this is the way that this
things have to be done.

In 1998, another meteorite falled, and this time, most of it was sold to
tourists, and dispersed like toys in ebay,
finishing as keychains, glued to a piece of paper, or something.

(This country had better days in some subjects)

Between the 2 episodes, please choose:
In the first case, the stone was studied and saved, to the benefit
(cultivation) of all of us.
This things are cultural obects, yes. In a universal sense.

In the second case, if someone benefited from it, it was the tourists, who
were able to take it from poor people for pocket money, to resell it at the
prices that we know.

If your neighbour does not close the door, it does not means that his tv can
be harvested, or collected, by some "smart" guy, does it?

If the Alandroal meteorite was found today, it would sell for a few bucks,
and would end in someone?s office as a decorative item, like a Campo del
ciello.
That would be a BIG loss to us, naive portuguese natives.
I mean it.

In the book of R. Norton, "rocks from space" it is described how Bob Haag
"extracted" from an african (synonimous of stupid, between the lines)
country, a valuable stone.
That was done after a psychological manoeuver, to take it from the hands of
the museum curator - he exchanged it for the equivalent of the colored
glass beads of "diplomatic procedures" with natives, of other times, ie for
volumous rubish.

This and other similar stories are presented like comedia pieces.

This is a predator attitude, and I think that those persons, principally
their descendents, were abused in their na?vety.

I think that Oman is poorer today than it was a month ago, if you
understand.
Obviously I am going to be called of radical, comunist, or something like
that.
Or that I am only jalous for not having used the oportunity and take the tv
myself. After all the stupid neighbour is sleeping.
He deserves it
A dissertation about the market`s logic is usual, too.

AA

----- Original Message -----
From: "E J" <jonee_at_epix.net>
To: "Armando Afonso" <armandoafonso_at_oniduo.pt>
Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:03 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was Some
..meteorite finds.


> Armando Afonso wrote:
>>But I blame them as much as you, for a unconcerned approach to the
> subject.
>
> I far more concerned about the subject than one would imagine, and I
> understand how it can offend. I don't think I'll ever get over the
> Tagish Lake Fiasco even if I understand the decisions made. If the
> willing, ready and, competent volunteers had been allowed to assist, a
> lot less of the 99% that sank would be available for study/collections.
> Examples of how not to do it, of course we have the lens of hindsight on
> these matters and even that lens is can produce polarized images. We
> would hope the next example isn't like Park Forrest with the police
> sponsored extortion. I find after the headlines have faded-- so do the
> lessons learned. Looking beyond these examples I will be a voice in the
> wilderness lamenting the lack of planning for such an event as a major
> fall.
>
> There are many impediments to a "working"solution. While you and I
> differ, perhaps, in point of view, but we are probably motivated by more
> in common. For myself, I cannot equate the random fall of a meteorite
> onto any given political jurisdiction as "culturally connected",
> automatically garnering the status of "cultural property". I can
> support the claim a little easier if it is classified as an object of
> "scientific value" and it is timely recovered and curated for science.
> The cultural claim comes across as a guise for ( in your allusion)
> government-sponsored piracy. In some recent similar situations, it was
> a stretch to claim that a skeleton buried 10,000 years before a modern
> tribe roamed a given territory was culturally connected to that
> Johnny-come-lately occupant of said adjacent tribal lands and thus a
> culturally affilated remain that had to be immediately reintered. A
> Florida agency recently moved to virtually eliminate all fossil
> collecting in waterways of the state, where before there was a licensing
> program in place to report and document certain finds. All these
> mentalities tend to quash science rather than promote it.
>
> There can be cooperation after the fact. In the case of the Otzi the
> bronze-aged mummy found by German tourists on the Austrian-Italian
> border, Austria agreed after recovering Otzi he had actually been inside
> Italy and turned over the remains to Italy. If we had to wait for a
> court decision, the body would have long since decayed where it laid.
> The point being there are scientifically important events where the find
> can be properly preserved and the details of ownership sorted out
> afterwards. (I am reminded of the old riddle: If an airplane of
> immigrants crashes on border of Arizona and Colorado which state is
> responsible for burying the survivors, but I digress). Bottomline is
> that both institution and collector will lose out if we don't have a plan.
>
> Some while ago there was a conference, I understand, that promoted the
> cooperation of professional and amateur working together instead of
> trashing each other and missing opportunities(paleo? meteoritical?). If
> anyone remembers this I'd like to know what became of that effort as
> for establishing a protocol or guideline for how they would work
> together. I also recall a private initiative to produce a training
> program leading to certification for credentialing field
> investigators/recovery workers.
>
> Here in the US, the Federal Government; the National Park Service, The
> Forestry Service,and the Department of Defense(DoD)--amongst the larger
> public property holders, have no framework in place to allow the
> recovery of any meteorite fall on public lands. (BLM has a gray-area
> void for anything under 250lbs, Dave Freeman knows more about the
> specifics). Imagine an Allende-sized shower in the Mojave Desert. It
> is a never before studied aromatic, ice laden cometary originating
> meteorite. A rock hound and forest ranger are there when it falls. The
> rock hound being a meteorite central list subscriber empties out his
> beer cooler to make room for as many pieces as he can stuff in it. The
> ranger says "Sorry, no can do!" Imagine the the loss of data while a
> response is contemplated: we form a scientific advisory committee, a
> legislative package to establish a legal framework, approach the Army
> Corps of Engineers, Park Service, California Dept of Natural Resources,
> and Environmental Protection Agency for approvals. It will never occur
> to them while turf-brawling to ask the US Geological Survey or NASA to
> the table as referees.
>
> If you think this is a stretch of the imagination, I did find a fresh
> meteorite on DoD property, going by the book, I left it lay. Some time
> later, I contacted the Smithsonian and they told me I had to bring it to
> them--at my expense. I contacted a nearby University known for its
> meteorite studies program to solicit their attempts to work government
> to government and was told " not my job". I went back to DoD on whose
> land it was on and was told I could come show it to them but it couldn't
> even be picked up for transfer to the Smithsonian. They would have to
> do an Environmental Impact Study and a Decision Paper, before doing so
> much as brushing the sand off it. I wish I were kidding.
>
> Elton
>
>
>
>>
>
>


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Received on Sat 20 May 2006 01:00:35 PM PDT