[meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was Some..meteorite finds.

From: Howard Steffic <bencubbin_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat May 20 10:29:45 2006
Message-ID: <BAY120-F15EFB3AC44A95F5CD035E3B7A40_at_phx.gbl>

Isn't about time for you to STFU ?

We are tired of your crying

Howard


>
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Armando Afonso"
><armandoafonso_at_oniduo.pt>
>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 8:11 AM
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was
>Some..meteorite finds.
>
>
>>In 1968, an Ataxite of 25 kg falled in Alandroal, not far of the popular
>>Ourique.
>>The authorities came imediatly, and confiscated the stone, to store it
>>temporarily at the local prison.
>>Days after, it was moved to the national museum, were it was analysed and
>>where it remains in display today.
>>This is the meteoritic reference for thousands of portuguese studants.
>>I still remember, when I was a kid, of the impact it made on me.
>>I have al the reasons to be convicted, then, that this is the way that
>>this
>>things have to be done.
>>
>>In 1998, another meteorite falled, and this time, most of it was sold to
>>tourists, and dispersed like toys in ebay,
>>finishing as keychains, glued to a piece of paper, or something.
>>
>>(This country had better days in some subjects)
>>
>>Between the 2 episodes, please choose:
>>In the first case, the stone was studied and saved, to the benefit
>>(cultivation) of all of us.
>>This things are cultural obects, yes. In a universal sense.
>>
>>In the second case, if someone benefited from it, it was the tourists, who
>>were able to take it from poor people for pocket money, to resell it at
>>the
>>prices that we know.
>>
>>If your neighbour does not close the door, it does not means that his tv
>>can
>>be harvested, or collected, by some "smart" guy, does it?
>>
>>If the Alandroal meteorite was found today, it would sell for a few bucks,
>>and would end in someone´s office as a decorative item, like a Campo del
>>ciello.
>>That would be a BIG loss to us, naive portuguese natives.
>>I mean it.
>>
>>In the book of R. Norton, "rocks from space" it is described how Bob Haag
>>"extracted" from an african (synonimous of stupid, between the lines)
>>country, a valuable stone.
>>That was done after a psychological manoeuver, to take it from the hands
>>of
>>the museum curator - he exchanged it for the equivalent of the colored
>>glass beads of "diplomatic procedures" with natives, of other times, ie
>>for
>>volumous rubish.
>>
>>This and other similar stories are presented like comedia pieces.
>>
>>This is a predator attitude, and I think that those persons, principally
>>their descendents, were abused in their naívety.
>>
>>I think that Oman is poorer today than it was a month ago, if you
>>understand.
>>Obviously I am going to be called of radical, comunist, or something like
>>that.
>>Or that I am only jalous for not having used the oportunity and take the
>>tv
>>myself. After all the stupid neighbour is sleeping.
>>He deserves it
>>A dissertation about the market`s logic is usual, too.
>>
>>AA
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "E J" <jonee_at_epix.net>
>>To: "Armando Afonso" <armandoafonso_at_oniduo.pt>
>>Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:03 AM
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Lost Opportunities Past and Future was Some
>>..meteorite finds.
>>
>>
>>>Armando Afonso wrote:
>>>>But I blame them as much as you, for a unconcerned approach to the
>>>subject.
>>>
>>>I far more concerned about the subject than one would imagine, and I
>>>understand how it can offend. I don't think I'll ever get over the
>>>Tagish Lake Fiasco even if I understand the decisions made. If the
>>>willing, ready and, competent volunteers had been allowed to assist, a
>>>lot less of the 99% that sank would be available for study/collections.
>>>Examples of how not to do it, of course we have the lens of hindsight on
>>>these matters and even that lens is can produce polarized images. We
>>>would hope the next example isn't like Park Forrest with the police
>>>sponsored extortion. I find after the headlines have faded-- so do the
>>>lessons learned. Looking beyond these examples I will be a voice in the
>>>wilderness lamenting the lack of planning for such an event as a major
>>>fall.
>>>
>>>There are many impediments to a "working"solution. While you and I
>>>differ, perhaps, in point of view, but we are probably motivated by more
>>>in common. For myself, I cannot equate the random fall of a meteorite
>>>onto any given political jurisdiction as "culturally connected",
>>>automatically garnering the status of "cultural property". I can
>>>support the claim a little easier if it is classified as an object of
>>>"scientific value" and it is timely recovered and curated for science.
>>>The cultural claim comes across as a guise for ( in your allusion)
>>>government-sponsored piracy. In some recent similar situations, it was
>>>a stretch to claim that a skeleton buried 10,000 years before a modern
>>>tribe roamed a given territory was culturally connected to that
>>>Johnny-come-lately occupant of said adjacent tribal lands and thus a
>>>culturally affilated remain that had to be immediately reintered. A
>>>Florida agency recently moved to virtually eliminate all fossil
>>>collecting in waterways of the state, where before there was a licensing
>>>program in place to report and document certain finds. All these
>>>mentalities tend to quash science rather than promote it.
>>>
>>>There can be cooperation after the fact. In the case of the Otzi the
>>>bronze-aged mummy found by German tourists on the Austrian-Italian
>>>border, Austria agreed after recovering Otzi he had actually been inside
>>>Italy and turned over the remains to Italy. If we had to wait for a
>>>court decision, the body would have long since decayed where it laid.
>>>The point being there are scientifically important events where the find
>>>can be properly preserved and the details of ownership sorted out
>>>afterwards. (I am reminded of the old riddle: If an airplane of
>>>immigrants crashes on border of Arizona and Colorado which state is
>>>responsible for burying the survivors, but I digress). Bottomline is
>>>that both institution and collector will lose out if we don't have a
>>>plan.
>>>
>>>Some while ago there was a conference, I understand, that promoted the
>>>cooperation of professional and amateur working together instead of
>>>trashing each other and missing opportunities(paleo? meteoritical?). If
>>>anyone remembers this I'd like to know what became of that effort as
>>>for establishing a protocol or guideline for how they would work
>>>together. I also recall a private initiative to produce a training
>>>program leading to certification for credentialing field
>>>investigators/recovery workers.
>>>
>>>Here in the US, the Federal Government; the National Park Service, The
>>>Forestry Service,and the Department of Defense(DoD)--amongst the larger
>>>public property holders, have no framework in place to allow the
>>>recovery of any meteorite fall on public lands. (BLM has a gray-area
>>>void for anything under 250lbs, Dave Freeman knows more about the
>>>specifics). Imagine an Allende-sized shower in the Mojave Desert. It
>>>is a never before studied aromatic, ice laden cometary originating
>>>meteorite. A rock hound and forest ranger are there when it falls. The
>>>rock hound being a meteorite central list subscriber empties out his
>>>beer cooler to make room for as many pieces as he can stuff in it. The
>>>ranger says "Sorry, no can do!" Imagine the the loss of data while a
>>>response is contemplated: we form a scientific advisory committee, a
>>>legislative package to establish a legal framework, approach the Army
>>>Corps of Engineers, Park Service, California Dept of Natural Resources,
>>>and Environmental Protection Agency for approvals. It will never occur
>>>to them while turf-brawling to ask the US Geological Survey or NASA to
>>>the table as referees.
>>>
>>>If you think this is a stretch of the imagination, I did find a fresh
>>>meteorite on DoD property, going by the book, I left it lay. Some time
>>>later, I contacted the Smithsonian and they told me I had to bring it to
>>>them--at my expense. I contacted a nearby University known for its
>>>meteorite studies program to solicit their attempts to work government
>>>to government and was told " not my job". I went back to DoD on whose
>>>land it was on and was told I could come show it to them but it couldn't
>>>even be picked up for transfer to the Smithsonian. They would have to
>>>do an Environmental Impact Study and a Decision Paper, before doing so
>>>much as brushing the sand off it. I wish I were kidding.
>>>
>>>Elton
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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>

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Received on Sat 20 May 2006 10:29:38 AM PDT