[meteorite-list] RE: Self-Proclaimed Pairing Issues

From: mark ford <markf_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Mon May 8 08:08:31 2006
Message-ID: <6CE3EEEFE92F4B4085B0E086B2941B315092E0_at_s-southern01.s-southern.com>

Hi Martin and list,

I agree it's probably not commercially viable to tm most meteorites, except maybe the expensive Martians, and Lunars et al. And I personally would rather see complete freedom in the marketplace, but for such a scientific subject it all seems remarkably 'hit and miss'.

(btw I am not a dealer myself just an enthusiastic collector)

To be honest, providing no-one is claiming that a meteorite 'is paired' when in fact 'it is not paired', then where is the problem?. The real problem comes when material that is 'possibly paired with NWAXXX' actually gets labeled and sold as 'NWAXXX', we all have a responsibility to ensure correct labeling and description if we are just buying, keeping or selling. I have made new labels for quite a few pieces in my collection over the years, (usually once new information comes to light in a 'list bicker'), it is part of the duty of care we all have to the rocks in our care,

So really we should all take a good look inward before looking around us...

Best,
Mark Ford




-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Altmann [mailto:altmann_at_meteorite-martin.de]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 12:49 PM
To: Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com; mark ford
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Self-Proclaimed Pairing Issues

Hi Mark,

the reason for so many desert meteorites, especially ordinary chondrites,
not being classified certainly is rooted in their commercialisation.
With the prices paid for them during the last years and the all in all petty
sales volumes that the meteorite "market" has and seen the costs to acquire
and to sell desert chondrites, there is hardly any profite to make with
them.
Additional losses of money and time for a classification often can't be
taken by the dealers, as most collectors wouldn't be willing to pay higher
prices.
Thus many sellers leave it to the buyer, whether he/she will let a chondrite
classified.
If you explore the desert segment of the "market", you will find out, that
most offerors are only semiprofessional dealers or collector-dealers or
amateurs (in a non-pejorative sense), who don't have the pressure to make
their living from meteorites and thus it is easier for them to bear the
costs for classification, than for the professional dealers, who bring up
the largest quantities of desert material
or that there were bulk sellers of unclassified material, because that was
the only way to have senseful earnings from meteorites. I write "was", cause
the diminishing supply from the deserts, doesn't allow any longer that
method of dealing.

Well and else, where a little money is still in with the desert stones, are
only the exotic types and/or especially beautiful specimens, the
non-representative thin layer of cream on top of the milk pot of the desert
finds.
- take a look to that platform called ebay, there you can often find per
week more achondrites, CVs, R's etc than ordinary classified desert
chondrites.

Dealers would bother to let all stuff classified, but they simply can't
afford it, because nobody is willing to pay the price for.

" it is bizarre
that government funded institutions are tied up doing work for
commercial companies/meteorite dealers, for often no more than a few
grams of material!?"

Can't follow those argumentation. The recovery campaigns in Antarctica paid
by tax money, which resulted in by far the largest number of finds and which
are thus undoubtedly a great success, are very expensive.
Therefore it might be not the worst deal in this respect, when the labs get
in exchange for there analyses the deposit material for free.
Of course it would be desirable, if that branches of the universities would
have been financially better equipped, but that wasn't depending on them
having used the means for classifying meteorites, I suppose.

Trademark idea doesn't work, if it costs a fee. Collectors already aren't
willing to pay adequate prices seen the costs, so for most offerors it would
be impossible
and even if it would be for free, the professional meteorite dealers are
hardworking and simply wouldn't have the time to care for such paperwork.

And finally, that what one always should have in mind before one starts to
pick on people selling desert meteorites - no matter if they are amateurs,
collectors or professional dealers, they do it because of their enthusiasm
and dedication to our beloved stones. In respect of the financial efforts,
the lifetime they have to spend,
I'm very sure, that the vast majority of the list members here,
wouldn't raise a finger for such mere resulting revenues.

Buckleboo!
Martin
 

 

-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von mark
ford
Gesendet: Montag, 8. Mai 2006 12:33
An: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: RE: [meteorite-list] RE: Self-Proclaimed Pairing Issues


Hi

I think the real problem basically here is that fact that the
classifying institutions are just unable to classify material quickly
enough for the high turn over pace of the real life commercial world,
the fact that it takes many months or even many years to classify even a
simple Chondrite, is usually the reason that most people don't bother
(I'm not saying that's morally right). But it needs to be way more
accessible.

I can't say I blame the institutions though either, to me it is bizarre
that government funded institutions are tied up doing work for
commercial companies/meteorite dealers, for often no more than a few
grams of material!?

As for not being able to trademark numbers I can only speak of my
experience for the UK, but there CERTAINLY are numerous number
trademarks (118118 is a classic example here in the UK) most are phone
numbers for various services. Maybe then the US is different but it is
not a problem for the UK at least. In fact looking into it, in theory
one could trademark 'NWA869' for the whole of the UK and probably Europe
for just a few hundred quid...

Best,
Mark Ford






-----Original Message-----
From: Meteoriteshow [mailto:meteoriteshow_at_free.fr]
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 9:56 AM
To: mark ford; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Self-Proclaimed Pairing Issues

Hi Mark and All,

Your suggestion is again a purely commercial point of view. I do not say
that it is a wrong way but should not be the only one to my
opinion.

I agree that with current infrastructures it is not possible to have any
single rock analysed and classified, but is it really
necessary? When not classified, meteorites can be proposed to
collectors, simply mentioning that they are not classified. Many
meteorites are sold this way, dealers selling still with profit -which
of course is normal!- and collectors being able to add some
nice pieces to their collection at attractive prices.

Once again there are already some rules by the Nom Com, which to me are
sufficient but not followed by everybody. That is the point.
Getting meteorites classified takes time and when having an interesting
one it is worth getting into that process -pairings for
instance-. Our modern societies always push us to go faster & faster and
those meteorites have been waiting on the ground for ages.
Can't we at least wait for a few months when we want to have them
classified?

Best wishes,

Frederic Beroud
http://www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA member # 2491 (http://www.imca.cc/)

----- Original Message -----
From: "mark ford" <markf_at_ssl.gb.com>
To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] RE: Self-Proclaimed Pairing Issues




Hi,

This pairing argument/debate is one that has been going for years and
years, and will most probably continue way beyond all of us.

To my way of thinking It will never be solved unless every single rock
that is found is analysed by a competent body and given a serial
numbered cert, that is clearly not going to happen unless someone opens
a massive meteor lab complex and makes a commercial charge for
classification, This would also require a complete overhaul of the
classification process, and probably wouldn't be practical.

So by way of a constructive suggestion, why don't dealers just trademark
their classifications?

It would work like this:

Dealer gets the rock classified, a number or name gets issued by the Nom
Com et al. Then the dealer registers it as a trademark, so anyone who
sells the material under that name (or makes a claim that it is the
same) would then be breaking the law, as they are trading under someone
else's trademark simple. - A commercial trademark belongs to the person
who registers it, not the person who names it.

Just a thought...

Mark Ford

______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list





______________________________________________
Meteorite-list mailing list
Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Received on Mon 08 May 2006 08:10:44 AM PDT