[meteorite-list] In medias res: Morocco Meteorite Meeting

From: David Weir <dgweir_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri Jun 30 14:26:56 2006
Message-ID: <44A56CEB.3060600_at_earthlink.net>

Hello Martin,

Here is some discussion of your post from me. Do not feel discouraged
that the response to your posts is not deafening, many probably do read
them and learn from them; I received no list discussion of my Dhofar 007
post from yesterday, and yet still feel that it does find an audience in
those among this list who remain here for purposes more similar to mine.
Perhaps the ebay feedback issue only has a few more days to run its course.

I can say about Abstract # 9019 - The most recent El-Idrissa fall, and
since then more and more unlocalized finds - that it reminds me of some
posts to the list from a time ago, but which also included comments
about the contribution to terrorism from the NWA market. The tone of
this emotional abstract sounds very similar, aside from this omission.

The second abstract you provide, # 9024 - What should we do with all
those meteorites from Sahara? - seems to take a much more thoughtful
enlightened approach to the issue. The issue of inheritance (for
scientific, educational, and aesthetic purposes) of NWA meteorites was
not even a topic that could be considered and debated before the market
forces enabled its accumulation. I'm glad some reasoned minds are
involved in this meeting, and I hope they prevail.

David

Martin Altmann wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> well, rumours, gossip, hearsay...I read the abstracts of the topics there
> and, after the IMHO incompetent statements, we all have to face sporadically
> by a very few scientists, mainly in media, who have no experiences in
> hunting and the NWA and Oman situation, but are blaming commerce to plunder
> irretrievably the scientific information and the monetary value of the
> patrimony of the desert -
> I'm content, that there is one unagitated and factual abstract concerning
> the NWA situation by Devouard, Denise, Messaoudi et al.,
> which maybe could mitigate the second abstract by Mostefaoui, Bounatiro,
> Bourout-Denise, which in a vehement way accuses dealers and scientists
> likewise to loot the meteoritical treasure of Algeria.
> All other abstracts about desert meteorites aren't tangent to the topic of
> the commercialism in the NWA-field and don't mention a possible opposition
> between science and private trade, nor do they contain any recommendations
> to create a legal status, no matter of which kind, for the desert stones.
>
> The abstracts are found here:
> http://www.fsac.ac.ma/meteorite/Casablanca_abstracts[2].pdf
> Abstract # 9024 - "What shall we do with all those meteorites from Sahara"
> And
> Abstract # 9019 - "The most recent El-Idrissa fall, and since then more and
> more unlocalized finds".
>
> Here the text bodies.
>
> And folks, as we, private collectors, suppliers, hunters, dealers - who are
> said to be solely responsible for that desert mess and, I fear, convictable
> and causative, that such a huge variety and mass of meteorites were
> recovered in a frequency and a volume, which in regard of the short time is
> absolutely unique in the 200 years lasting history of meteoritics, but, if
> one hears some assertations, seems to be for some scientists no reason for
> elation, but rather a sad and enormous calamity
> and as we of course are laymen and as collectors, dealers and hunters and as
> accused ones of course not worthy to move a foot in the holy halls of
> science
> and thus never any representative of us, even not those directly from those
> fields, which are so eagerly discussed also by such experts, who rather
> unwillingly like to leave their snug bureaus, will be heard,
> let's discuss the abstracts here on the list, cause we haven't any other
> place, sniff.
> (and then we have to collect some money to sent an IMCA director there to
> produce our point of view there... Huhuhu I imagine Norbert and Christian
> singing in front of the closed fortresslike hotel doors: We shall
> overcohoohohhme... and throwing achondrites after the police cavalry)
>
> Yayaya, of course the latter paragraph is polemic and provocative, don't
> take it to serious ;-)
> but necessarily so, cause I want to generate more postings about this topic
> than about e.g. the epistemological aspects of ebay feedbacks.
>
> Here now for the additional dramatisation first the incendiary speech about
> the Algerian stones, followed by the more composed abstract, which contains
> some direct answers on the questions posed in the first one.
>
> Buckleboo!
> Martin
>
>
>
> "9019
> Introduction: Algerian desert meteorites (ADMs) are one of the
> important contributors to the world meteorite collection that improves our
> knowledge of the origin of the solar system and evolution of stars and their
> environments. While managing other meteorite collections is well controlled,
> Saharan meteorites and especially the Algeria ones, are out of control and
> most of them are handled by dealers. Here, we present an overview of the
> scientific and commercial interests of ADMs.
>
> Overview: According to MetBase [1], Algerian desert count 613
> documented meteorites, representing more than 15% of the worlds total
> registered meteorites from hot Sahara. The ADMs (excluding NWA) count 2
> SNCs and one lunar. Only two meteorites are known to be preserved in
> Algeria, El-Idrissia (L6) is in the Centre de Recherche d?Astrophysique et
> Astronomie et Geophysique (CRAAG) Algiers, and Fortflatters (non-class.)
> is in the Saharan Museum in Ouargla, southwest of Algeria.
> Meteorite Falls and the El-Idrissia Story: Among the ADMs, seven
> are observed falls. The first observed fall is the Aumale (L6) meteorite
> (fallen
> the same day as Shergotty in India, in August 25, 1865). The most recent one
> is El-Idrissia. It is also an L6 and it fell on March 10, 1998 [2]. While
> the
> oldest fall Aumale is composed of two stones of 25 kg each, the total number
> of stones and weight of El-Idrissia is still controversial. According to our
> records, which are contradictory to what has been registered [1], 4 pieces
> of
> the meteorite were collected by the habitants of the region, one of which is
> a
> single piece of 12 kg and it disappeared after it was brought by the
> Algerian
> local authority to the CRAAG. We still do not know where this stone is.
> Algeria, a Closed/Open Meteorites Market: El-Idrissia is probably
> one of the many meteorites that crossed the borders to land in one of the
> overseas meteorite collections. Despite an Algerian law explicitly
> preventing
> exportation of meteorites, the collect of ADMs is still active. Within the
> last
> 10 years, their flow significantly improved in order to supply meteorite
> markets. The trading was potentially ensured along the Algerian/Morocco
> borders. Northwest Africa (NWA) meteorites are one of the most concerned
> by this traffic. To gain profit from these meteorites, scientists preferred
> to
> deal with the merchants rather than defeating them. However, since these
> meteorites were mostly collected by inexperienced persons that usually work
> under difficult conditions, many scientific information are lost. Among the
> ADMs, about 25% are NWA mostly of unknown locations and where records
> of desert alteration conditions are inaccessible. This is also true for many
> other meteorites collected in different desert locations (Libya, Oman).
> Meteorites are part of our scientific patrimony; they deserve more
> consideration and a better preservation for the succeeding generations. The
> meteoritic community is most qualified to find solutions to this dramatic
> situation. Two scientific stations are ready to collaborate in Algeria, in
> Algiers, and in Oran."
>
>
> "9024
> WHAT SHOULD WE DO WITH ALL THOSE METEORITES FROM
> SAHARA?
> B. Devouard1, M. Denise2, M. Messaoudi3,1, D. Belhai3, B. Zanda-Hewins2,
> and C. Perron2. 1Laboratoire Magmas et Volcans, UMR CNRS 6524, 5 rue
> Kessler, 63000 Clermont-Ferrand, France. E-mail:
> devouard_at_opgc.univbpclermont.
> fr. 2Laboratoire d?Etude de la Mati?re Extraterrestre, CP 52,
> D?partement d?Histoire de la Terre, Mus?um National d?Histoire Naturelle,
> 57 rue Cuvier, 75005 Paris, France. 3Universit? des Sciences et Technologie
> Houari Boumediene (USTHB), BP 32 El Alia, 16012 Algeria
> Thousands of meteorites are currently collected from hot and cold
> deserts every year. By providing new samples of rare groups, or even
> previously unknown types of meteorites, these systematic collections greatly
> improve our knowledge of the solar system. As meteorites from Antarctic
> collections are carefully documented and managed, most meteorites from
> Sahara are collected by dealers. Systematic collection campaigns for
> commercial purposes started in Sahara about 1989 in Libya and Algeria, then
> spread to nearby countries such as Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, and Niger.
> The most remarkable samples of Saharan meteorites are usually singled
> out close to the source and eventually reach laboratories for
> classification. On
> the other hand, many meteorites are marketed wholesale at low prices, most
> of them ordinary chondrites. In the absence of laboratories capable to
> handle
> the classification of those hundreds of new samples, many stay unreported.
> Among those, however, many interesting samples probably remain
> unrecognized.
>>From a scientific point of view, Saharan collections have to deal with a
> basic problem: the precise find locations are often unknown, or at least
> unreported. This prevents the studies of strewn fields, of the effect of
> terrestrial alteration (which depends on local geographical factors), and
> makes pairing very delicate.
> Saharan meteorite collections also raise an ethical issue. Some
> countries, such as Algeria, do not allow the exportation of meteorites.
> Moreover, there are currently no market nor scientific facilities for
> meteoritical studies in north African countries. As a consequence, many
> stones collected by nomads in the whole Saharan region are currently
> marketed in Morocco, and eventually reach the European or North American
> markets and scientific institutions.
> So, what should we do with all those meteorites from Sahara? Should
> museums trade at the market price, or ignore this sudden bounty of new
> meteorite finds that (arguably) are of lower scientific interest than
> observed
> falls? Systematic collections in deserts skim out meteorites that fell over
> thousands of years in these regions. This currently apparent abundance of
> meteorites from hot deserts should therefore be considered worth preserving
> as a patrimony (scientific, educational, and aesthetic). This is a
> challenge..."
Received on Fri 30 Jun 2006 02:26:51 PM PDT