[meteorite-list] AD: METEORITE CLASSIFICATION SERVICE

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat Jul 15 22:44:53 2006
Message-ID: <93aaac890607142224h75bd637fu90f4da3907aa1d3d_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello Stan, David, All,

>>Well, here's a quote from that page...seems as if the writer probably
>>wasn't
>>up to speed on his meteorite-related info I guess......huh.

>and yet their writter seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the 'sky is
>falling' tone of the SWMC's press releases / interviews.

Yeah, shame s/he misinterpreted some other material.

>>Hmmm, and how much are you willing to lose?

>a 'small' amount. if in the bigger picture it helps the overall
>industry/state of science. it's not like institutional collections ahve
>never lost any material or made bad choices about it's disposition
(grinding
>up perfectly orientated murchison's for bulk compositional analysis, ect)

Well, if you know it really is a small amount, I'm glad. I don't though,
and from what I've seen, I think its a fairly large amount...and of older,
non desert meteorites as well, especially as collectors from the Nininger
era get older....

And as for Marvin being in charge of an institution that would grind up
perfectly oriented Murchisons, you are completely mistaken. He would not
allow such things to happen, and if you knew him, you'd know that. Don't
bring other institutions into this, because this is something new. It's
being headed by a collector. He's not going to make the same mistakes that
such an organization might make if it were staffed solely by scientists.

>
>>Well, isn't it odd then, how a new meteorite from New Mexico turns up on
>>ebay with a buy it now of a fraction of what it's worth?

>No. it's pretty reasonable for someone to sell something that they have no
>idea of what it is or is worth for substantially less that what it might
>apear to be worth - if the sum of money they think they might be able to
get
>is substantially enough for their new found hunk of whatever. funnily
enough
>that one didnt make it to the dust bin, did it? (OR maybe the owner saw
>prices for gibeons and canyon diablos and didnt realize people pay a
premium
>for small american finds)

Exactly. The seller had no idea of it's worth. In fact, it was almost
thrown away from what I read in its description. So what's your point? It
was discovered only because the ex-whatever in law happened to be a relative
of some friend of the finder....amazing that it surfaced at all. Imagine
how many never make it....

>*> >and this helps recover even MORE meteorites.*
>>
>>Now there's going to be an institution willing to pay for them as
well...it
>>still supports the dealers. I fail to see how you're making any sort of a
>>point here.

>i think i have made the point all along that i would rather the public
still
>be able to buy meteorites. SWMC = less meteorites for the public per their
>mission statement.

Well, in that case, why aren't you against all museums and 'public' (as in
government or institution owned) collections in the first place? They're
taking away from the pool pf possible collecting material, after all. I say
we dissolve all such collections and spread the resulting new available
specimens around. Would that make you happy?

>>Furthermore, to address the accusation the Darren brought against me: that
>>I
>>believe that "that only those with huge budgets should collect
meteorites."
>>This is untrue. If you read my post thoroughly, you would have known that
>>I
>>would rather have not a collection of irons, but a single one - rather
than
>>a collection of micros.

>Good for you. want a cookie? news flash sport, just cuz you think that way
>doesnt mean everyone else does. You gunna call up David Weird and Norbert
>Classen and let them know they shouldnt buy little chips of stuff and
>instead should save up their money for a new main mass iron? I'm sure they
>will apreciate the wisdom of your enlightened ways and your ever so
>graciously pointing out the error of theirs.

Hostility, eh? Well, I won't resort to it.
Again, I shall reiterate. People can collect whatever they want. If they
want micros, they can collect micros. I just gave my mentality on
collecting.
The fact of the matter is that this institution aims to collect not all, but
a portion of the new material being found. I don't see how this would have
any great effect on pricing or collectors. If the dealers can move more
material more quickly, they still get paid the same amount. If they chose
to jack prices up, it will be no one's doing but their own.

>>The prices are all relative...one can have a
>>hundred pieces of this and that or one can wait for the main mass of a new
>>iron and buy that. One would then have a single meteorite in his or her
>>collection, but it would be a spectacular meteorite. It's all a personal
>>choice, not one dictated by money.

>I dont know many dealers that offer a 'life time' payment plan. Not every
>meteorite collector out there can just go out and buy a new iron main mass
>even if they shared your collecting philosophy. Not many 'collectors' would
>be happy with collecting nothing but a dollar here and a dollar there for 5
>or 10 years so they could afford that spectacular new one.

Lifetime payment plan? Don't make me laugh. If one simply was willing to
wait, they could do it, given time.
I try not to buy too much junk, unless i know it's worth more than I paid
for it, and could be resold for more if I ever decided to sell it. If a
modest one comes along, I might be able to buy one in a few years - why else
would I take up odd jobs over the summer?....well, money for stuff with
friends, but I always save some.

>>
>>Well, I've yet to see too many private collections on public display, but
>>go
>>ahead and prove me wrong. I know of Mark Bostick's and Marvin Killgore's.
>>A small portion of ours will also be up somewhere, as well.

>Public display isnt the only way a meteorite gets seen. Just about everyone
>who knows me has held a boulder of 4 vesta in ther hands or a 1/4 lb of
>mars. how often does that happen in collections that are on public display.

No argument there - and why would you ever get rid of them? Wouldn't you be
happier to be paid by institutions for the small amount of material if they
needed it instead of just being asked to donate specimens? There's a bit
more incentive there....

>>Well, prove me wrong and I'll believe you...I've picked diogenites, CV's,
>>CK's, CR's, and several unequilibrated meteorites out of those
unclassified
>>bins...so I have no doubt that there are a good few out there.

>there are a good number of tons of these materials known. what fraction
have
>been saved from unclassified bins? how would SWMC's service help pull rocks
>out of unclassified bins when they offer a pay service and the whole POINT
>of an unclassified bin is that dealers dont want to bother to get the rocks
>classified?

Well, from what Marvin said, it sounded as if they just wanted to get their
hands on anything they could - including bulk unclassified material if it
was available.

>>Yes, Stan, tens of kilos. I personally saw four 1+kilo pieces that were
>>parts of a single, broken up stone, as well as two other pieces that fit
>>together to make a 3+kg fragment. I'm not entirely sure about how much
>>more
>>there was, but the four fragments that fit together looked as if they'd
>>been
>>very recently broken - as if in transit, and there were still several very
>>freshly broken faces without fragments to fit onto them when it was
>>reassembled. To whom those were sold to, I cannot guess. And I only saw
>>a
>>small portion of the show in the weekend that I was there. Who knows how
>>much more went undiscovered or sold for next to nothing...

>are you talking about this last tucson? I think somoene was pulling your
>leg. there was a aprox 7kg ureilite that was offered out of morocco for
some
>time with no takers. I belive Martin made an offering to the list about it.
>When it could not sell whole the owner broke it up and left the material
>with a few of the tucson dealers for sales.

Sorry Stan, no one was pulling my leg. I saw them with my own eyes...as
well as a 3-4kg fairly fresh Acapulcoite individual (which hasn't been
described yet, as far as I can tell), and a number of other things. Well,
that one was being kept under someone's bed, so I doubt you saw it, but they
were around...

>>It's called an endowment. I've already stated this. Yes, they want ten
>>million dollars, but that amount will be put into an account so that they
>>can use the interest created to buy meteorites. I'd research the program
>>before you start badmouthing it.

>an endowwhut? sorry, i dont understand these snooty falooty big words..
what
>exactly do they do with this account and that intrest stuff? :rolleyes:

Well, if you know what it is, you shouldn't still be arguing about their
$ten million. It wouldn't be spent...but you know that, so why am I even
telling you.

>as i said already - a group with 10 million in funding could buy up a
>sunstantial portion of the meteorites that are avalible to the public from
>the deserts. furthermore what makes you think SWMC will play it
>conservitivly with their funds when they thing that almost all of the
>meteorites avalible are being quickly sold off? Their own statements would
>suggest that they should act as quickly as possible to soak up as much as
>possible before there simply isnt any more to be had.

Yeah, $ten million in the bank, making interest. I'm not sure what sort
of interest that amount of money would make yearly, but it's not enough to
soak up *everything* - *even if that was the goal of the University of
Arizona, and it isn't.*

>> I believe in not cutting pristine material into tiny bits so
>>that a few people who want a bit can have one. You end up destroying the
>>meteorite that way, and for what?
>>Money, I'm pretty sure....no, really sure.......

>Well thats because you are playing the part of a presumptuous arrogant kid
>quite well. For the record when I have sold stuff in the past I did it with
>the intention of keeping prices DOWN, so that the material was acessible to
>more people. thats thew whole point - puttignt he material in the hands of
>more people.

Presumptuous arrogant kid? Fine, call me names, I won't stoop to calling
you things in return.
Just don't badmouth reputable institutions in public - especially without
researching them (or talking to the director for a few hours, as I've done)
in the first place.

Good, you try to keep prices down. Now you can sell a bit to the University
of Arizona, and sell the rest to whomever you want to. Or just use their
classification services and chose not to give them more than the 20g
required for analysis. Trust me, they won't force you to sell to them.

>>And yet you seem to have a problem with the University of Arizona doing
>>this. If a dealer gives them a portion, the rest goes to the market. I
>>see
>>no logic in your argument whatsoever. Except, the university's specimens
>>would be on public display, and would be studied, so that people might
>>learn
>>from them, whereas yours...well, I have no idea what your hours are or
>>where
>>you live...any chance you could help me out with that?

>anything that I have would have a type specimin donated for it, so it would
>be studied too.

Well I certainly hope so. Same with us.

>The only other diffrence is that is it's new and special -
>in my hands it will be acessible to the public. At the SWMC, it wont be
>avalible to the public and odds are it wont even be SEEN by the public.

Yeah, the *fraction* of the meteorite sold to them wouldn't be available to
the public, I agree. And the knowledge that would come from the further
studies on them would be.
And then you'd be free to sell just as much to the public if you chose to -
fancy that.
Or maybe one less slice....is that what you're so pissed about?

>Look
>at how many major institutional collections there are, and look at what
>percentage of their collection is on public display.

I don't care about other institutions. They have nothing to do with this.
This program has promised to put a large meteorite display up, that anyone
in the area could see. What's your point?

And Stan, you seem to be speaking only of absolutes. It's almost as if you
expect the program to buy up everything they can and then scorn collectors
who don't sell them material.
It won't be anything like that. They *might* buy up to half of a new
meteorite, but then, that amount's up to the dealer in the first place.
They could tell the University of Arizona to shove it, or they could sell
them just a small portion of the stone. Whatever. But the university won't
simply be grabbing everything in sight. The market will still be in the
control of the dealers.


Jason



On 7/14/06, stan . <laser_maniac_at_hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> >Well, here's a quote from that page...seems as if the writer probably
> >wasn't
> >up to speed on his meteorite-related info I guess......huh.
>
> and yet their writter seemed to have a pretty good grasp on the 'sky is
> falling' tone of the SWMC's press releases / interviews.
>
>
> >Hmmm, and how much are you willing to lose?
>
> a 'small' amount. if in the bigger picture it helps the overall
> industry/state of science. it's not like institutional collections ahve
> never lost any material or made bad choices about it's disposition
> (grinding
> up perfectly orientated murchison's for bulk compositional analysis, ect)
>
> >
> >Well, isn't it odd then, how a new meteorite from New Mexico turns up on
> >ebay with a buy it now of a fraction of what it's worth?
>
> No. it's pretty reasonable for someone to sell something that they have no
> idea of what it is or is worth for substantially less that what it might
> apear to be worth - if the sum of money they think they might be able to
> get
> is substantially enough for their new found hunk of whatever. funnily
> enough
> that one didnt make it to the dust bin, did it? (OR maybe the owner saw
> prices for gibeons and canyon diablos and didnt realize people pay a
> premium
> for small american finds)
>
>
> >*> and this helps recover even MORE meteorites.*
> >
> >Now there's going to be an institution willing to pay for them as
> well...it
> >still supports the dealers. I fail to see how you're making any sort of
> a
> >point here.
>
> i think i have made the point all along that i would rather the public
> still
> be able to buy meteorites. SWMC = less meteorites for the public per their
> mission statement.
>
>
> >Furthermore, to address the accusation the Darren brought against me:
> that
> >I
> >believe that "that only those with huge budgets should collect
> meteorites."
> >This is untrue. If you read my post thoroughly, you would have known
> that
> >I
> >would rather have not a collection of irons, but a single one - rather
> than
> >a collection of micros.
>
> Good for you. want a cookie? news flash sport, just cuz you think that way
> doesnt mean everyone else does. You gunna call up David Weird and Norbert
> Classen and let them know they shouldnt buy little chips of stuff and
> instead should save up their money for a new main mass iron? I'm sure they
> will apreciate the wisdom of your enlightened ways and your ever so
> graciously pointing out the error of theirs.
>
> >The prices are all relative...one can have a
> >hundred pieces of this and that or one can wait for the main mass of a
> new
> >iron and buy that. One would then have a single meteorite in his or her
> >collection, but it would be a spectacular meteorite. It's all a personal
> >choice, not one dictated by money.
>
> I dont know many dealers that offer a 'life time' payment plan. Not every
> meteorite collector out there can just go out and buy a new iron main mass
> even if they shared your collecting philosophy. Not many 'collectors'
> would
> be happy with collecting nothing but a dollar here and a dollar there for
> 5
> or 10 years so they could afford that spectacular new one.
>
>
> >
> >Well, I've yet to see too many private collections on public display, but
> >go
> >ahead and prove me wrong. I know of Mark Bostick's and Marvin
> Killgore's.
> >A small portion of ours will also be up somewhere, as well.
>
> Public display isnt the only way a meteorite gets seen. Just about
> everyone
> who knows me has held a boulder of 4 vesta in ther hands or a 1/4 lb of
> mars. how often does that happen in collections that are on public
> display.
>
>
> >Well, prove me wrong and I'll believe you...I've picked diogenites, CV's,
> >CK's, CR's, and several unequilibrated meteorites out of those
> unclassified
> >bins...so I have no doubt that there are a good few out there.
>
> there are a good number of tons of these materials known. what fraction
> have
> been saved from unclassified bins? how would SWMC's service help pull
> rocks
> out of unclassified bins when they offer a pay service and the whole POINT
> of an unclassified bin is that dealers dont want to bother to get the
> rocks
> classified?
>
>
>
> >Yes, Stan, tens of kilos. I personally saw four 1+kilo pieces that were
> >parts of a single, broken up stone, as well as two other pieces that fit
> >together to make a 3+kg fragment. I'm not entirely sure about how much
> >more
> >there was, but the four fragments that fit together looked as if they'd
> >been
> >very recently broken - as if in transit, and there were still several
> very
> >freshly broken faces without fragments to fit onto them when it was
> >reassembled. To whom those were sold to, I cannot guess. And I only
> saw
> >a
> >small portion of the show in the weekend that I was there. Who knows how
> >much more went undiscovered or sold for next to nothing...
>
> are you talking about this last tucson? I think somoene was pulling your
> leg. there was a aprox 7kg ureilite that was offered out of morocco for
> some
> time with no takers. I belive Martin made an offering to the list about
> it.
> When it could not sell whole the owner broke it up and left the material
> with a few of the tucson dealers for sales.
>
>
> >It's called an endowment. I've already stated this. Yes, they want ten
> >million dollars, but that amount will be put into an account so that they
> >can use the interest created to buy meteorites. I'd research the program
> >before you start badmouthing it.
>
> an endowwhut? sorry, i dont understand these snooty falooty big words..
> what
> exactly do they do with this account and that intrest stuff? :rolleyes:
>
> as i said already - a group with 10 million in funding could buy up a
> sunstantial portion of the meteorites that are avalible to the public from
> the deserts. furthermore what makes you think SWMC will play it
> conservitivly with their funds when they thing that almost all of the
> meteorites avalible are being quickly sold off? Their own statements would
> suggest that they should act as quickly as possible to soak up as much as
> possible before there simply isnt any more to be had.
>
>
> > I believe in not cutting pristine material into tiny bits so
> >that a few people who want a bit can have one. You end up destroying the
> >meteorite that way, and for what?
> >Money, I'm pretty sure....no, really sure.......
>
> Well thats because you are playing the part of a presumptuous arrogant kid
> quite well. For the record when I have sold stuff in the past I did it
> with
> the intention of keeping prices DOWN, so that the material was acessible
> to
> more people. thats thew whole point - puttignt he material in the hands of
> more people.
>
> >And yet you seem to have a problem with the University of Arizona doing
> >this. If a dealer gives them a portion, the rest goes to the market. I
> >see
> >no logic in your argument whatsoever. Except, the university's specimens
> >would be on public display, and would be studied, so that people might
> >learn
> >from them, whereas yours...well, I have no idea what your hours are or
> >where
> >you live...any chance you could help me out with that?
>
> anything that I have would have a type specimin donated for it, so it
> would
> be studied too. The only other diffrence is that is it's new and special -
> in my hands it will be acessible to the public. At the SWMC, it wont be
> avalible to the public and odds are it wont even be SEEN by the public.
> Look
> at how many major institutional collections there are, and look at what
> percentage of their collection is on public display.
>
>
>
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