[meteorite-list] AD - BENGUERIR, SHIROKOVSKY and black crusted NWA

From: Meteoriteshow <meteoriteshow_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Mar 31 08:16:13 2005
Message-ID: <00cd01c535f3$ca022370$6396e052_at_bebees>

Hi Philippe, Marcin, Matto and All,

I have been to the strewnfield as well and I can assure everybody that THERE
IS A NEW FALL in Morocco that should be named shortly BENGUERIR.
- First of all, as Philippe mentioned, this place is far from the desert and
getting such fresh material, all fragments similar to each other in terms of
fusion crust, matrix means that they were LOCALLY recovered. In this
agricultural and very green area, it rains often enough for a meteorite to
get weathered very rapidly, which is not the case for Benguerir (unless a
fragment has been stored for a while in a well as Philippe mentions on his
web site). I have also collected some witness reports about the fall and I
can't see any reason for them to tell a story. Can anybody tell us how
Besour fragments would have reached this place and been shared between
farmers who would keep them hidden, waiting for us to come and buy? How the
Royal Police would have been also involved in such a 'rumor' and collected
most of the fragments?
- Second of all, some fragments display a second phase, different from the
LL6 main structure. I have bought two fragments like this and can send
pictures to anyone who likes to see them; this is definitely not the case of
Bensour, and Benguerir is obviously a different fall than Bensour.
Therefore, Benguerir is a breccia (and Bensour is not). How could it be
possible then, that some fragments I bought there would display this breccia
if I bought some Bensour???
- Finally, buying a Benguerir on a show a few weeks after the fall, to a
Moroccan dealer who mainly sells Bensour is probably a risk not to get the
right material when you do not know him well Matteo. You may have bought a
Bensour instead of Benguerir and the guy who sold it to you either made a
mistake or did it intentionally; I don't know. Bensour are most of the time
complete individuals of various sizes, but I have not seen any small
complete individuals of Benguerir so far... That's also another difference
(but of course I have not seen all of them!!!).

To finish with this 'story, Philippe mentioned also the Moroccan scientist
who made the classification of Benguerir. I think that her work must be
considered as very serious. She is also a Nomenclature Committee Member of
the Meteoritical Society and I believe that she would not have proposed this
new fall to be recorded by the Met Soc without a seriously documented
enquiry.

I think that we always have very careful when buying something like
meteorites and make sure that we really buy what we are supposed to. But too
much paranoia is not good! You can contact me directly if you want to buy a
fragment of Benguerir Matteo, and then compare it with Bensour. I have one
last small one with the breccia if you want.

I just wished to bring my opinion as I was there last January, hoping it
will help to make things clearer.

Best wishes to all of you,

Frederic Beroud
www.meteoriteshow.com
IMCA # 2491 (http://www.meteoritecollectors.org/)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Thomas" <thomasmeteorites_at_wanadoo.fr>
To: "M come Meteorite Meteorites" <mcomemeteorite2004_at_yahoo.it>
Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] AD - BENGUERIR, SHIROKOVSKY and black crusted
NWA


Definitely it's not the same material. Very few moroccan dealers have
got this material because this meteorite fell at the north of
Marrakech. This region is very far from the Erfoud region and the
Sahara desert. More of them were very afraid by the authorities
reactions and don't go to the strewnfield to recover some material. If
you think Benguerir it's the same material that Bensour, perhaps have
you purchased a piece of Bensour for Benguerir?

All the best,
Philippe

> for me its the same material, I have put the 2 pieces
> near and its the same material.....same matrix, same
> metal grains, same crust
>
> Matteo
>
> --- Philippe Thomas <thomasmeteorites_at_wanadoo.fr>
> wrote:
>> Hello Matteo, Marcin and listies,
>> There is no reason to be suspicious about this
>> meteorite : this is a
>> real witnessed fall.
>> I was on the strewnfiled few days after the fall and
>> I've recovered
>> some witnesses reports and have took some photos and
>> some GPS
>> coordinates of the impact points.
>> This meteorite has been analysed and declared by a
>> moroccan scientist,
>> Mrs Chennaoui Aoudjehane, who has got a lot of
>> documentation : pictures
>> of impact holes, witnesses report.... It will be
>> normally published in
>> the next Meteoritical Bulletin.
>> This meteorite is a LL6 as Bensour for example but
>> the visual aspect
>> (fusion crust, matrix, pools of metal...) between
>> Bensour and Benguerir
>> is absolutly different, as it is different from
>> Kilabo, another LL6
>> fall.
>> A study will be done by the scientists to see if it
>> exists or not a
>> link between these recent falls.
>> To do a comparison as Marcin, Benguerir looks as
>> Bensour as Amgala
>> looks as Zag... : same classification but no
>> possible confusion.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Philippe Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I have just buy a piece of the " new " benguerir
>> fall
>>> in the Bologna Show from a moroccan person many
>> many
>>> undecided, strangly with many pieces of Bensour in
>> the
>>> tables....same matrix, same crust, same
>> metal...100%
>>> the same material....and for me and others its the
>>> same material pass for another fall....moroccan
>>> persons quite they are known to make it pass every
>>> meteorite like something of special, for no speack
>> of
>>> the fake fossils or meteorites this persons sale
>> to no
>>> expert persons
>>>
>>> Matteo
>>>
>>>
>>>> Matteo did You ever see a Bensour or Benguerir ?
>> If
>>>> this is the same then
>>>> Taza comes from Sikhote Alin
>>>>
>>>> Stop saying shit about this meteorite. Its new
>> fall.
>>>> Its not possible to
>>>> find "old" meteorite on desert with THAT
>> condition
>>>> and quality. My specimen
>>>> comes from fragment that lay on ground not more
>> than
>>>> few hours.
>>>> Matteo, change Your translator, becouse it
>> propably
>>>> make wrong translations
>>>> of Your words.
>>>>
>>>> And at least, for me this could be fall or not,
>> not
>>>> importand. Maybe Habibi
>>>> make it in his hotel kitchen, but this is soo
>>>> beautifull meteorite and for
>>>> this I love it.
>>>>
>>>> If noone will be not interested in this specimen,
>> I
>>>> will cut it to
>>>> beautifull slices.
>>>> That what I will do.
>>>> Marcin the butcher.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----[ MARCIN CIMALA ]-----[ I.M.C.A.#3667 ]-----
>>>> http://www.Meteoryt.net
>>>> marcin_at_meteoryt.net
>>>> http://www.PolandMET.com
>> marcin_at_polandmet.com
>>>> http://www.Gao-Guenie.com GSM +48(607)535
>> 195
>>>> --------[ Member of Polish Meteoritical Society
>>>> ]--------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato
>>> Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA,
>> ITALY
>>> Email: mcomemeteorite2004_at_yahoo.it
>>> Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it
>>> Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info
>>> International Meteorite Collectors Association
>> #2140
>>> MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com
>>>
>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
> M come Meteorite - Matteo Chinellato
> Via Triestina 126/A - 30030 - TESSERA, VENEZIA, ITALY
> Email: mcomemeteorite2004_at_yahoo.it
> Sale Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.it
> Collection Site: http://www.mcomemeteorite.info
> International Meteorite Collectors Association #2140
> MSN Messanger: spacerocks at hotmail.com
> EBAY.COM:http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/mcomemeteorite/
>
>
>
> ___________________________________
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Received on Thu 31 Mar 2005 08:16:01 AM PST