[meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom

From: David Freeman <dfreeman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Nov 25 10:40:52 2004
Message-ID: <41A5FD2B.6020307_at_fascination.com>

Dear Mark;
Geeze, I think we were here before, last year, year before, year before
that. I believe I offered my basic chain of custody used in most water
sampling laboratories ....it was all poo-pooed but, it works for the
judicial system, the EPA, and all state water quality systems in legal
proceedings.
Has a start, a present, a finish.
I doubt the time has come yet but it may be sooner than we think.
Happy triptophan buzz,
Dave F.

mark ford wrote:

>
>
>All that's needed is a simple card which documents, the origins of the
>specimen and the previous owners, maybe also anything that is done to
>the rock, eg, classifications analysis cleaning etc (maybe even these
>cards would become collectable themselves one day?) then at least you
>know it's pedigree, it's a start.
>
>Should the specimen be cut then the card is then photocopied and the new
>specimen weight is added as a new line on the card along with any new
>details, that way all the original info of the parent rock is preserved.
>Think about it, you could pick up a specimen and tell where it came
>from, and gain a degree of confidence.
>
>Now that might scare some people but its called 'authenticity' and we
>want it!
>
>A slice with a full provenance could be worth a lot more than a lunar
>slice stuffed in a plastic bag with no info - that's for sure, which
>would you rather buy?
>
>Of course you would never be able to stop people faking the cards, but
>at least that's definite fraud and would come under the law, where as
>the sorry sate of affairs that exists at the moment even [we] can't even
>tell whats going on let alone knowing what we are buying!
>
>
>There's been a lot of argument and heated discussion on all this, but
>I'm sure it's not personal, and I really think its actually very good to
>get the truth out in the open, it's the only way forward.
>
>Best
>
>Mark Ford
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeff Grossman [mailto:jgrossman_at_usgs.gov]
>Sent: 25 November 2004 15:15
>To: Meteorite List
>Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom
>
>Just so you all understand, here's what JSC does (I think). It doesn't
>translate well into a system where more than one person owns the
>meteorite,
>but perhaps that doesn't matter. They label their original specimen
>"<name>,0". I suppose if they had a case where there was more than one
>fragment in the original mass (not usually true), they might number each
>
>fragment with a different number. Every time they divide a sample, the
>main remaining piece retains its number and the new sample gets the next
>
>available sequence number. A database records the original mass of each
>
>sample, its current mass, the nature of the sample (slab, end piece,
>thin
>section, potted butt, etc.) and the name of the "parent" sample from
>which
>it was taken. So you might have ALH 05002,20 which is a thin section
>that
>the database tells you was taken from parent ALH 05002,3 which was a 20
>g
>slice taken from the main mass ALH 05002,0 which weighed 221 g. When a
>researcher gets a sample, he no longer modifies these numbers even if he
>
>divides specimens because he has no access to the JSC database.
>
>How could this translate to commercial meteorites? I think the
>suggestion
>that each person in the chain append a new subsample number separated by
>a
>comma is impractical. For big meteorites, this could get out of hand
>real
>quick, producing a long chain of untraceable numbers. All I think that
>is
>needed is for the original owner to do what JSC does in some form. I
>would
>suggest that they not concern themselves with maintaining a database of
>all
>cuts and divisions, but instead just number the specimens once and leave
>it
>at that. If somebody buys a piece of NWA 5423,11 then he can trace this
>
>back to an original specimen. You see, the comma denotes a specimen
>number. These numbers would correspond exactly to the "number of pieces"
>
>reported to the NomCom. Everything with only one piece would be
>xxxx,1. Now if somebody wants to call a new meteorite he buys in
>Morocco
>NWA 5434, which is not allowed under our rules, he would have to go the
>extra step of actually faking a specimen number. The other nice thing
>about this scheme is that if somebody discovers that NWA 5434,11 is a
>primitive achondrite not really paired with the rest of NWA 5434, an H6
>chondrite, then everybody who bought it will know if he has it.
>
>Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how
>the
>specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15
>g
>piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the
>meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does.
>
>reactions?
>
>Jeff
>
>At 06:14 AM 11/25/2004, mark ford wrote:
>
>
>
>>This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
>>meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.
>>
>>I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in
>>
>our
>
>>field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!
>>
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Mark Ford
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John Birdsell [mailto:birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu]
>>Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
>>To: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com
>>Cc: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom
>>
>>Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
>>if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
>>and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
>>would be, who would be the "Meteorite Auditors" to track down the few
>>offending dealers that may decide to "fake" a meteorite ID number, say
>>NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
>>and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to "verify" that it is
>>really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
>>custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
>>this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
>>by the Meteorite Auditors of "faking" the piece after an audit exposed
>>the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
>>inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
>>bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
>>NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
>>
>>
>>Cheers
>>
>>
>>-John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:
>>
>>>Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
>>>
>>>I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic
>>>
>suggestion
>
>>that we acquire NWA's only from "the dealer" that classified it.
>>
>>>Mike - good post. My only wincing is that "the dealer" doesn't
>>>
>>classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
>>know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects,
>>
>as
>
>>always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
>>your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
>>too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
>>perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
>>and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
>>
>>>John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am
>>>
>accustomed
>
>>to coming from you. This "Trust" argument alternative holds no water
>>personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
>>interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
>>without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
>>soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
>>which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has
>>
>created
>
>>and sales have happily fomented.
>>
>>>So Listen, please and stop blaming the "nomads gangs" (wow that was a
>>>
>>laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
>>is a collective problem, period.
>>
>>>John, other than the "trust" monopoly exclusive club smelling thing
>>>
>you
>
>>suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
>>Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and
>>
>fragment
>
>>numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
>>{...}. And keep a copy of the original classification card. In this
>>hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the
>>idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut
>>the slice in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA
>>6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a
>>number and only when necessary to your little piece of heaven, not
>>cataloging the entire stone.
>>
>>>Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It
>>>
>>isn't some far flung idea - there is a great scientific precedent now
>>and for years. My opinion is that "meteorite dealers" just don't want
>>to deal with the paperwork. What a PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They
>>know enough to know who they bought the piece from and how much they
>>sold it to you for. And the tax authority probably requires it anyway,
>>too, but let's let the tax authority police them on that. The other
>>half is that they don't want you to know where they got it from.
>>Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the science you buy for their
>>blindly greedy benefits.
>>
>>>The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a
>>>
>>great model, and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I
>>bet a German cat could handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
>>
>>>So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these
>>>
>>numbers, and he won't send them to you (or will he:)). So let's not
>>just blame the "dealers", but take our ownership as well. No more "I
>>don't know what to do, it's a meteorite jungle out there." Just a
>>courteous question to the dealer. "Can you tell me the fragment number
>>I am buying?" If they squeal on that one you know you are dealing with
>>a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a pig in a poke.
>>
>>>"Dealers", well now that I'm in boiling water, how is this: We are
>>>
>not
>
>>interested in your name or your competitors original card. It should
>>just be the MetSoc approved researcher's card. OK scientists,
>>taxonomists, Jeff and committe members. Here is your chance to
>>shine...can you suggest a simple card filled out by the researcher when
>>classifying all specimens of a #?. No dealers need apply. How
>>handsome my collection of 50 meteoritic scraps (and one nice witnessed
>>Mexican fall) would then be. How enchanted I would be looking over my
>>real collection!!! Not that I am not now, but we need to do better and
>>find the way to make all benefit. Not shoot down one good idea after
>>another. John, Mike thanks for the platform and good ideas that had me
>>do this one.
>>
>>>Saludos, Doug
>>>
>>>After spending the night with Comet Machholz and a spotlight Moon
>>>
>last
>
>>night I may be tired so I may be a little crusty today. Don't mind.
>>
>>>En un mensaje con fecha 11/24/2004 12:56:32 PM Mexico Standard Time,
>>>
>>birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu escribe:
>>
>>>Hi Larry, Mike and list. Yes, at first this sounds like good advice,
>>>
>>however this can lead to numerous problems as well. For instance I
>>obtained a beautiful large chunk of NWA 482 in a trade with you Mike,
>>and I know that numerous other dealers also have NWA 482 for sale. If
>>
>we
>
>>were only to purchase from the dealer who had the meteorite classified
>>then this would pretty much eliminate such trades as all such traded
>>
>>>pieces would become worthless. Another example is Dhofar 019. There
>>>
>>must be 20 dealers all legitimacy selling this shergottite, which they
>>themselves purchased wholesale. Now if everyone were only to buy from
>>the individual that had Dhofar 019 classified (Serge), then Serge would
>>be stuck with around a kilo of Martian rock with no market for it
>>
>except
>
>>for the retail market. He would be relegated to selling off 200 mg here
>>and 300 mg there for the next forty years. This would make the
>>acquisition of large, rare rocks retarded unless someone wanted to
>>
>spend
>
>>40 years recouping their initial investment. The same can be said for
>>hundreds of other meteorites. This also screws the collector who may
>>
>>>want to sell one of his expensive meteorites to buy something else.
>>>
>If
>
>>everyone only purchases from the person that originally had the
>>meteorite classified then the resale value of these meteorites would be
>>zero. I don't think that the collectors are going to appreciate paying
>>top dollar for some expensive planetary meteorite and then being told
>>that "Oh yeah, by the way don't try to sell that expensive meteorite
>>
>>>that we just sold you because you are not the one that had it
>>>
>>classified and no one will buy it from you." This would really piss me
>>off if I were the collector that had spent my hard earned money on an
>>expensive and rare meteorite specimen. The best thing for dealers to do
>>is to get their meteorites classified by a legitimate research
>>institution, and to
>>
>>>use their own numbers. If they want, they can say "my NWA XXX is
>>>
>>probably paired to NWA YYY" or "my NWA is paired to NWA ZZZ" depending
>>upon the provisional or final classification respectively. For those
>>buyers that want to be sure they are getting properly classified and
>>named specimens, they should keep track of which dealers do follow the
>>Nom. Com. guidelines and avoid those that do not. Fortunately the
>>overwhelming majority of dealers are honest and play by the rules.
>>
>>>Unfortunately, there is a lot of BS being put on the meteorite-list
>>>
>by
>
>>certain meteorite dealers of the "my meteorite is better than yours"
>>sort. Don't be fooled by this non-sense either-it is just a transparent
>>attempt at self promotion. There are a lot of very reputable meteorite
>>dealers out there that do not engage in these types of sales tactics,
>>
>>>and I would prefer to support these honest, reputable dealers.
>>>
>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>>-John
>>>Arizona Skies Meteorites
>>>http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Michael Farmer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Larry, this is the problem I was getting at.
>>>>I will tell you the simple solution, buy the meteorite from the
>>>>
>dealer
>
>>>>who had it classified, then there can be no error.
>>>>Mike Farmer
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Harrison"
>>>><L_Harrison_at_infostations.com>
>>>>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:54 AM
>>>>Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Greetings List,
>>>>>
>>>>>I am but a small time collector (>200 specimens). However, I
>>>>>
>cherish
>
>>>>>my small example of the evolution of the solar system. I am also an
>>>>>astronomy educator. I always include meteorites in my lectors AND I
>>>>>am always asked "how do you know if it is really a meteorite? My
>>>>>answer: Irons are simple to recognize, and I explain the
>>>>>widmanstatten figure and how it forms. Stones on the other hand
>>>>>require analysis especially when chondrules (I explain chondrules)
>>>>>are not easily visible. In those cases it is very important to know
>>>>>your source. I have always made it clear that I only deal with
>>>>>reputable dealers.
>>>>>
>>>>>The posts of late have put a very large question in my mind about
>>>>>
>who
>
>>>>>is reputable. The saddest part is that many reputable dealers are
>>>>>being scamed by the Nomads. I prefer to collect the rarest of the
>>>>>rare. And this is where most of the scams are being made. My
>>>>>absolute certainty of the authenticity of my collection is now in
>>>>>question! I do not question that any piece in my collection is or
>>>>>isn't a meteorite, but that it is not the specimen type that I
>>>>>
>think
>
>>>>>it is. I have always been more than excited about the immense
>>>>>
>number
>
>>>>>of new and rare meteorites coming out of the Sahara. If not for
>>>>>
>these
>
>>>>>finds I could never afford as many representations of the early
>>>>>
>solar
>
>>>>>system or of the achondrites of lessor differentiated bodies. I am
>>>>>crushed, uncertain and totally confused! What to do? Since I am not
>>>>>
>a
>
>>>>>big time buyer, my reluctance to purchase further NWA's will not
>>>>>
>hurt
>
>>>>>any of you. However, I feel that I am Mr. Average. If this mess
>>>>>
>curbs
>
>>>>>my desire to purchase more meteorites, I assure you it is doing the
>>>>>same to many more. This is the saddest moment in my 20 years of
>>>>>meteorite collecting.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks for letting me vent,
>>>>>
>>>>>Harrison
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>______________________________________________
>>Meteorite-list mailing list
>>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>______________________________________________
>>Meteorite-list mailing list
>>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>
>Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
>Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
>US Geological Survey
>954 National Center
>Reston, VA 20192, USA
>Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
>
>
>______________________________________________
>Meteorite-list mailing list
>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>______________________________________________
>Meteorite-list mailing list
>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
Received on Thu 25 Nov 2004 10:41:31 AM PST