[meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom

From: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Nov 25 10:15:44 2004
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041125093804.03302540_at_gsvaresm02.er.usgs.gov>

Just so you all understand, here's what JSC does (I think). It doesn't
translate well into a system where more than one person owns the meteorite,
but perhaps that doesn't matter. They label their original specimen
"<name>,0". I suppose if they had a case where there was more than one
fragment in the original mass (not usually true), they might number each
fragment with a different number. Every time they divide a sample, the
main remaining piece retains its number and the new sample gets the next
available sequence number. A database records the original mass of each
sample, its current mass, the nature of the sample (slab, end piece, thin
section, potted butt, etc.) and the name of the "parent" sample from which
it was taken. So you might have ALH 05002,20 which is a thin section that
the database tells you was taken from parent ALH 05002,3 which was a 20 g
slice taken from the main mass ALH 05002,0 which weighed 221 g. When a
researcher gets a sample, he no longer modifies these numbers even if he
divides specimens because he has no access to the JSC database.

How could this translate to commercial meteorites? I think the suggestion
that each person in the chain append a new subsample number separated by a
comma is impractical. For big meteorites, this could get out of hand real
quick, producing a long chain of untraceable numbers. All I think that is
needed is for the original owner to do what JSC does in some form. I would
suggest that they not concern themselves with maintaining a database of all
cuts and divisions, but instead just number the specimens once and leave it
at that. If somebody buys a piece of NWA 5423,11 then he can trace this
back to an original specimen. You see, the comma denotes a specimen
number. These numbers would correspond exactly to the "number of pieces"
reported to the NomCom. Everything with only one piece would be
xxxx,1. Now if somebody wants to call a new meteorite he buys in Morocco
NWA 5434, which is not allowed under our rules, he would have to go the
extra step of actually faking a specimen number. The other nice thing
about this scheme is that if somebody discovers that NWA 5434,11 is a
primitive achondrite not really paired with the rest of NWA 5434, an H6
chondrite, then everybody who bought it will know if he has it.

Note, that when one is selling a meteorite, one should be careful how the
specimen numbers are used. You are selling NWA 5434. However, this 15 g
piece I have up for auction is a slice of NWA 5434,4. The name of the
meteorite has no comma. The name of a particular specimen does.

reactions?

Jeff

At 06:14 AM 11/25/2004, mark ford wrote:



>This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
>meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.
>
>I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our
>field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!
>
>
>Best,
>
>Mark Ford
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John Birdsell [mailto:birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu]
>Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
>To: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com
>Cc: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom
>
>Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
>if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
>and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
>would be, who would be the "Meteorite Auditors" to track down the few
>offending dealers that may decide to "fake" a meteorite ID number, say
>NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
>and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to "verify" that it is
>really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
>custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
>this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
>by the Meteorite Auditors of "faking" the piece after an audit exposed
>the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
>inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
>bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
>NWA 123,9,25,2,3!
>
>
>Cheers
>
>
>-John
>
>
>
>
>
>MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:
>
> >Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
> >
> >I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion
>that we acquire NWA's only from "the dealer" that classified it.
> >
> >Mike - good post. My only wincing is that "the dealer" doesn't
>classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
>know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as
>always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
>your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
>too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
>perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
>and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
> >
> >John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed
>to coming from you. This "Trust" argument alternative holds no water
>personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
>interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
>without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
>soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
>which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created
>and sales have happily fomented.
> >
> >So Listen, please and stop blaming the "nomads gangs" (wow that was a
>laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
>is a collective problem, period.
> >
> >John, other than the "trust" monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
>suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
>Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment
>numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
>{...}. And keep a copy of the original classification card. In this
>hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the
>idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut
>the slice in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA
>6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a
>number and only when necessary to your little piece of heaven, not
>cataloging the entire stone.
> >
> >Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It
>isn't some far flung idea - there is a great scientific precedent now
>and for years. My opinion is that "meteorite dealers" just don't want
>to deal with the paperwork. What a PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They
>know enough to know who they bought the piece from and how much they
>sold it to you for. And the tax authority probably requires it anyway,
>too, but let's let the tax authority police them on that. The other
>half is that they don't want you to know where they got it from.
>Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the science you buy for their
>blindly greedy benefits.
> >
> >The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a
>great model, and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I
>bet a German cat could handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
> >
> >So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these
>numbers, and he won't send them to you (or will he:)). So let's not
>just blame the "dealers", but take our ownership as well. No more "I
>don't know what to do, it's a meteorite jungle out there." Just a
>courteous question to the dealer. "Can you tell me the fragment number
>I am buying?" If they squeal on that one you know you are dealing with
>a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a pig in a poke.
> >
> >"Dealers", well now that I'm in boiling water, how is this: We are not
>interested in your name or your competitors original card. It should
>just be the MetSoc approved researcher's card. OK scientists,
>taxonomists, Jeff and committe members. Here is your chance to
>shine...can you suggest a simple card filled out by the researcher when
>classifying all specimens of a #?. No dealers need apply. How
>handsome my collection of 50 meteoritic scraps (and one nice witnessed
>Mexican fall) would then be. How enchanted I would be looking over my
>real collection!!! Not that I am not now, but we need to do better and
>find the way to make all benefit. Not shoot down one good idea after
>another. John, Mike thanks for the platform and good ideas that had me
>do this one.
> >
> >Saludos, Doug
> >
> >After spending the night with Comet Machholz and a spotlight Moon last
>night I may be tired so I may be a little crusty today. Don't mind.
> >
> >En un mensaje con fecha 11/24/2004 12:56:32 PM Mexico Standard Time,
>birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu escribe:
> >
> >Hi Larry, Mike and list. Yes, at first this sounds like good advice,
>however this can lead to numerous problems as well. For instance I
>obtained a beautiful large chunk of NWA 482 in a trade with you Mike,
>and I know that numerous other dealers also have NWA 482 for sale. If we
>were only to purchase from the dealer who had the meteorite classified
>then this would pretty much eliminate such trades as all such traded
> >pieces would become worthless. Another example is Dhofar 019. There
>must be 20 dealers all legitimacy selling this shergottite, which they
>themselves purchased wholesale. Now if everyone were only to buy from
>the individual that had Dhofar 019 classified (Serge), then Serge would
>be stuck with around a kilo of Martian rock with no market for it except
>for the retail market. He would be relegated to selling off 200 mg here
>and 300 mg there for the next forty years. This would make the
>acquisition of large, rare rocks retarded unless someone wanted to spend
>40 years recouping their initial investment. The same can be said for
>hundreds of other meteorites. This also screws the collector who may
> >want to sell one of his expensive meteorites to buy something else. If
>everyone only purchases from the person that originally had the
>meteorite classified then the resale value of these meteorites would be
>zero. I don't think that the collectors are going to appreciate paying
>top dollar for some expensive planetary meteorite and then being told
>that "Oh yeah, by the way don't try to sell that expensive meteorite
> >that we just sold you because you are not the one that had it
>classified and no one will buy it from you." This would really piss me
>off if I were the collector that had spent my hard earned money on an
>expensive and rare meteorite specimen. The best thing for dealers to do
>is to get their meteorites classified by a legitimate research
>institution, and to
> >use their own numbers. If they want, they can say "my NWA XXX is
>probably paired to NWA YYY" or "my NWA is paired to NWA ZZZ" depending
>upon the provisional or final classification respectively. For those
>buyers that want to be sure they are getting properly classified and
>named specimens, they should keep track of which dealers do follow the
>Nom. Com. guidelines and avoid those that do not. Fortunately the
>overwhelming majority of dealers are honest and play by the rules.
> >Unfortunately, there is a lot of BS being put on the meteorite-list by
>certain meteorite dealers of the "my meteorite is better than yours"
>sort. Don't be fooled by this non-sense either-it is just a transparent
>attempt at self promotion. There are a lot of very reputable meteorite
>dealers out there that do not engage in these types of sales tactics,
> >and I would prefer to support these honest, reputable dealers.
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >
> >-John
> >Arizona Skies Meteorites
> >http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Michael Farmer wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Larry, this is the problem I was getting at.
> >>I will tell you the simple solution, buy the meteorite from the dealer
>
> >>who had it classified, then there can be no error.
> >>Mike Farmer
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Harrison"
> >><L_Harrison_at_infostations.com>
> >>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:54 AM
> >>Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA's
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Greetings List,
> >>>
> >>>I am but a small time collector (>200 specimens). However, I cherish
> >>>my small example of the evolution of the solar system. I am also an
> >>>astronomy educator. I always include meteorites in my lectors AND I
> >>>am always asked "how do you know if it is really a meteorite? My
> >>>answer: Irons are simple to recognize, and I explain the
> >>>widmanstatten figure and how it forms. Stones on the other hand
> >>>require analysis especially when chondrules (I explain chondrules)
> >>>are not easily visible. In those cases it is very important to know
> >>>your source. I have always made it clear that I only deal with
> >>>reputable dealers.
> >>>
> >>>The posts of late have put a very large question in my mind about who
>
> >>>is reputable. The saddest part is that many reputable dealers are
> >>>being scamed by the Nomads. I prefer to collect the rarest of the
> >>>rare. And this is where most of the scams are being made. My
> >>>absolute certainty of the authenticity of my collection is now in
> >>>question! I do not question that any piece in my collection is or
> >>>isn't a meteorite, but that it is not the specimen type that I think
> >>>it is. I have always been more than excited about the immense number
> >>>of new and rare meteorites coming out of the Sahara. If not for these
>
> >>>finds I could never afford as many representations of the early solar
>
> >>>system or of the achondrites of lessor differentiated bodies. I am
> >>>crushed, uncertain and totally confused! What to do? Since I am not a
>
> >>>big time buyer, my reluctance to purchase further NWA's will not hurt
>
> >>>any of you. However, I feel that I am Mr. Average. If this mess curbs
>
> >>>my desire to purchase more meteorites, I assure you it is doing the
> >>>same to many more. This is the saddest moment in my 20 years of
> >>>meteorite collecting.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for letting me vent,
> >>>
> >>>Harrison
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
>
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Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
US Geological Survey
954 National Center
Reston, VA 20192, USA
Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
Received on Thu 25 Nov 2004 10:15:29 AM PST