[meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom

From: mark ford <markf_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Nov 25 07:04:29 2004
Message-ID: <6CE3EEEFE92F4B4085B0E086B2941B3124488F_at_s-southern01.s-southern.com>

Bernhard,

I really don't want to criticize the IMCA, but I am Sorry to say I agree
with your statement, just when the biggest turmoil in years has kicked
up, about authenticity, (which incidentally is exactly what they where
started up for in the first place!!), - they seem to have gone an
'unearthly quiet'!

Best,

Mark



-----Original Message-----
From: Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems [mailto:rendelius_at_rpgdot.com]
Sent: 25 November 2004 11:28
To: mark ford
Cc: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom

Well, IMCA has made a call for a design for such a card lately, and I
even submitted one to them. No answer, and nothing else on this matter
:-(

It seems to me that IMCA spends a lot of energy on the structuring of
the management lately, and less on other things. And their communication
towards the members is something they have to improve. One could have
the impression now that IMCA acts like an elite circle and not like a
representation of collectors. For example: Since I am member of IMCA, I
haven't received a single mail to members about what is going on inside
of IMCA. I have been contacted by individuals within IMCA, yes, on
different matters I proposed and offered, but these were personal
contacts. Would I have remained a silent member, I would know nothing
about what IMCA is doing right now.

Yes, this is some critizism, but I think it is needed.

  _____

Best regards,
Bernhard "Rendelius" Rems

CEO RPGDot Network

 
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-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of mark
ford
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 12:14 PM
To: Meteorite List
Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom




This is exactly why I suggested ages ago that we adopt a standardized
meteorite Record card, then any information follows the piece around.

I do feel the IMCA should step in here, authenticity is paramount in our
field, and confidence is dripping away FAST!


Best,

Mark Ford


-----Original Message-----
From: John Birdsell [mailto:birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu]
Sent: 24 November 2004 22:13
To: MexicoDoug_at_aol.com
Cc: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA's, "Dealers", Science, & NomCom

Hi Doug and thanks for the interesting idea. I suppose that could work
if every dealer kept perfect records of every piece, slice, part slice,
and part, part slice that they ever bought or sold. The question then
would be, who would be the "Meteorite Auditors" to track down the few
offending dealers that may decide to "fake" a meteorite ID number, say
NWA 123,9,25,3,2 and track it through all the hands that is has passed
and sub-divisions that it has been cut into to "verify" that it is
really NWA 123,9,25,3,2? What happens if someone along the chain of
custody accidentally transposed the 3 and the 2 in the ID number, and
this got passed down the line? Some end recipient could then be accused
by the Meteorite Auditors of "faking" the piece after an audit exposed
the problem. Who is going to spend their time trying to resolve this
inevitable issues? I can just see our friends on the Meteorite-List
bickering over whether they have proper claim to NWA 123,9,25, 3,2 or
NWA 123,9,25,2,3!


Cheers


-John





MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:

>Hello John, Larry, Mike, Michael, List,
>
>I want to respond to John's point of view on Mike's dramatic suggestion
that we acquire NWA's only from "the dealer" that classified it.
>
>Mike - good post. My only wincing is that "the dealer" doesn't
classify it. A Met Soc approved researcher does mi cuate. I know you
know that but it won't hurt to remind you, I think, with my respects, as
always to you for a bang-up job. I am in agreement with the spirit of
your post and with that of John's with has me thinking you are both way
too right, extreme and impractical. What you have done IMHO is make a
perfect combined argument to get all the dealers off their alleged lazy
and greedy duffs to do the right thing.
>
>John - Your post was good as usual, but more jaded than I am accustomed
to coming from you. This "Trust" argument alternative holds no water
personally since folks like me and I assume like Larry are not
interested in doing credit and background checks on dealers. And
without folks like me and I assume like Larry all you dealers will be
soon stuck in a pyramid scheme with each other on Meteorite pricing
which everyone's free-for-all neglect of scientific protocol has created
and sales have happily fomented.
>
>So Listen, please and stop blaming the "nomads gangs" (wow that was a
laugher) or Habibi or Hupe or whoever and distancing yourselves - this
is a collective problem, period.
>
>John, other than the "trust" monopoly exclusive club smelling thing you
suggest, I think you have not added your usual eye-opening value to
Mike's post. The answer [I think] here is to add the stone and fragment
numbers to conserve the classification process. Like NWA 6000, 2, 4
{...}. And keep a copy of the original classification card. In this
hypothetical exaple case, the NWA 6000 stone #2 slice 4. I stole the
idea from Dr. Grossman and NASA curators. It works. Then if you cut
the slice in half and give your partner the second half, she has NWA
6000,2,4,2. Don't make this confusing. sheesh, it is just adding a
number and only when necessary to your little piece of heaven, not
cataloging the entire stone.
>
>Larry, let me give you the reason I think no one has done this. It
isn't some far flung idea - there is a great scientific precedent now
and for years. My opinion is that "meteorite dealers" just don't want
to deal with the paperwork. What a PATHETIC excuse of theirs. They
know enough to know who they bought the piece from and how much they
sold it to you for. And the tax authority probably requires it anyway,
too, but let's let the tax authority police them on that. The other
half is that they don't want you to know where they got it from.
Another pathetic excuse to sacrifice the science you buy for their
blindly greedy benefits.
>
>The elementary school library has the Dewey Decimal system, what a
great model, and first graders can handle it, but not us. Ho Hum. I
bet a German cat could handle it. It is the same no-brainer thing.
>
>So no one is asking from John for his new esquisite Sahara iron these
numbers, and he won't send them to you (or will he:)). So let's not
just blame the "dealers", but take our ownership as well. No more "I
don't know what to do, it's a meteorite jungle out there." Just a
courteous question to the dealer. "Can you tell me the fragment number
I am buying?" If they squeal on that one you know you are dealing with
a pig. If they are honest you're not buying a pig in a poke.
>
>"Dealers", well now that I'm in boiling water, how is this: We are not
interested in your name or your competitors original card. It should
just be the MetSoc approved researcher's card. OK scientists,
taxonomists, Jeff and committe members. Here is your chance to
shine...can you suggest a simple card filled out by the researcher when
classifying all specimens of a #?. No dealers need apply. How
handsome my collection of 50 meteoritic scraps (and one nice witnessed
Mexican fall) would then be. How enchanted I would be looking over my
real collection!!! Not that I am not now, but we need to do better and
find the way to make all benefit. Not shoot down one good idea after
another. John, Mike thanks for the platform and good ideas that had me
do this one.
>
>Saludos, Doug
>
>After spending the night with Comet Machholz and a spotlight Moon last
night I may be tired so I may be a little crusty today. Don't mind.
>
>En un mensaje con fecha 11/24/2004 12:56:32 PM Mexico Standard Time,
birdsell_at_email.arizona.edu escribe:
>
>Hi Larry, Mike and list. Yes, at first this sounds like good advice,
however this can lead to numerous problems as well. For instance I
obtained a beautiful large chunk of NWA 482 in a trade with you Mike,
and I know that numerous other dealers also have NWA 482 for sale. If we
were only to purchase from the dealer who had the meteorite classified
then this would pretty much eliminate such trades as all such traded
>pieces would become worthless. Another example is Dhofar 019. There
must be 20 dealers all legitimacy selling this shergottite, which they
themselves purchased wholesale. Now if everyone were only to buy from
the individual that had Dhofar 019 classified (Serge), then Serge would
be stuck with around a kilo of Martian rock with no market for it except
for the retail market. He would be relegated to selling off 200 mg here
and 300 mg there for the next forty years. This would make the
acquisition of large, rare rocks retarded unless someone wanted to spend
40 years recouping their initial investment. The same can be said for
hundreds of other meteorites. This also screws the collector who may
>want to sell one of his expensive meteorites to buy something else. If
everyone only purchases from the person that originally had the
meteorite classified then the resale value of these meteorites would be
zero. I don't think that the collectors are going to appreciate paying
top dollar for some expensive planetary meteorite and then being told
that "Oh yeah, by the way don't try to sell that expensive meteorite
>that we just sold you because you are not the one that had it
classified and no one will buy it from you." This would really piss me
off if I were the collector that had spent my hard earned money on an
expensive and rare meteorite specimen. The best thing for dealers to do
is to get their meteorites classified by a legitimate research
institution, and to
>use their own numbers. If they want, they can say "my NWA XXX is
probably paired to NWA YYY" or "my NWA is paired to NWA ZZZ" depending
upon the provisional or final classification respectively. For those
buyers that want to be sure they are getting properly classified and
named specimens, they should keep track of which dealers do follow the
Nom. Com. guidelines and avoid those that do not. Fortunately the
overwhelming majority of dealers are honest and play by the rules.
>Unfortunately, there is a lot of BS being put on the meteorite-list by
certain meteorite dealers of the "my meteorite is better than yours"
sort. Don't be fooled by this non-sense either-it is just a transparent
attempt at self promotion. There are a lot of very reputable meteorite
dealers out there that do not engage in these types of sales tactics,
>and I would prefer to support these honest, reputable dealers.
>
>Cheers
>
>
>-John
>Arizona Skies Meteorites
>http://www.arizonaskiesmeteorites.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Michael Farmer wrote:
>
>
>
>>Larry, this is the problem I was getting at.
>>I will tell you the simple solution, buy the meteorite from the dealer

>>who had it classified, then there can be no error.
>>Mike Farmer
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Harrison"
>><L_Harrison_at_infostations.com>
>>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:54 AM
>>Subject: [meteorite-list] NWA's
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Greetings List,
>>>
>>>I am but a small time collector (>200 specimens). However, I cherish
>>>my small example of the evolution of the solar system. I am also an
>>>astronomy educator. I always include meteorites in my lectors AND I
>>>am always asked "how do you know if it is really a meteorite? My
>>>answer: Irons are simple to recognize, and I explain the
>>>widmanstatten figure and how it forms. Stones on the other hand
>>>require analysis especially when chondrules (I explain chondrules)
>>>are not easily visible. In those cases it is very important to know
>>>your source. I have always made it clear that I only deal with
>>>reputable dealers.
>>>
>>>The posts of late have put a very large question in my mind about who

>>>is reputable. The saddest part is that many reputable dealers are
>>>being scamed by the Nomads. I prefer to collect the rarest of the
>>>rare. And this is where most of the scams are being made. My
>>>absolute certainty of the authenticity of my collection is now in
>>>question! I do not question that any piece in my collection is or
>>>isn't a meteorite, but that it is not the specimen type that I think
>>>it is. I have always been more than excited about the immense number
>>>of new and rare meteorites coming out of the Sahara. If not for these

>>>finds I could never afford as many representations of the early solar

>>>system or of the achondrites of lessor differentiated bodies. I am
>>>crushed, uncertain and totally confused! What to do? Since I am not a

>>>big time buyer, my reluctance to purchase further NWA's will not hurt

>>>any of you. However, I feel that I am Mr. Average. If this mess curbs

>>>my desire to purchase more meteorites, I assure you it is doing the
>>>same to many more. This is the saddest moment in my 20 years of
>>>meteorite collecting.
>>>
>>>Thanks for letting me vent,
>>>
>>>Harrison
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>

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Received on Thu 25 Nov 2004 07:01:46 AM PST