[meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$

From: Ron Hartman <RNHARTMA_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:25:37 2004
Message-ID: <001d01c3166c$04c675a0$6c79908c_at_RHARTMAN1>

Not having done so, I am recalling from memory, but I remember having been
told that there is such a permission to gather MINERALS on BLM land, per the
comment below, but that may not apply to meteorites, specifically. Re: The
crater: the region is divided into square mile sections, like a
checkerboard. For a few miles around the crater, with some minor exception,
the red squares would be owned by Bar-T-Bar/Meteor Crater Enterprises; the
black squares by the State of Arizona. The state leases sections for ONLY
GRAZING RIGHTS (not mineral rights) to MCE. However, you would need to
bring along your GPS to know the State land without trespassing on MCE
land. However, the area is part of a government multiple use arrangement
for recreation. They cannot refuse to let you hike /walk /hunt (animals,
not meteorites :=), etc. (according to the info. I saw when last in the
area) but the State WILL not give a permit to hunt meteorites. One
little-known meteorite collector I once knew tried that with initial success
some years ago. He in fact did receive a permit from the State land Office
in Phoenix. When he was seen hunting at the crater, MCE called the state
and the permit was immediately revoked.

In my opinion, it is a good thing that open collecting is not now allowed.
You can imagine what would happen if it were. The meteorites that are still
buried have been there for quite awhile. They aren't going to rust away in
the next few years. Future research from material still "in situ" may want
to be done at some time. It is the responsibility of the owners to preserve
that science. The argument that they are being "saved" by digging them up
doesn't hold up if meteorites are recovered, then sliced up and allowed to
slowly rust away. In spite of preservation techniques, I suspect that if we
could look a few hundred years into the future, that many now in private
collections will have been either lost or destroyed by rusting by then. The
ones in the ground will still be there. Those that are at risk are already
long gone as shale balls.

Ron Hartman


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Schoner" <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>
To: "Tom aka James Knudson" <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>; "Bob Martino"
<martino.6_at_osu.edu>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$


>
> --- Tom aka James Knudson <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>
> wrote:
> > Hello Steve and list, I have a paper signed by an
> > AZ. BLM big-wig that
> > states a person can collect 250 pounds a year of
> > meteorites from BLM land
> > and can be traded, given away or kept. You just can
> > not sale any or make a
> > profit in any way.
> >
> > Thanks, Tom
> > The proudest member of the IMCA 6168
>
>
> REALLY !
>
> Well, then, let's all get together and give it a try
> on some select State BLM lands around "Meteor Crater."
>
> Be sure to bring that letter along, so that everyone
> can have a copy of it, because you can bet that Meteor
> Crater Enterprises over at the Crater will certainly
> send their posse out and "arrest" all of us for a
> Meteor Crater style "legal lynching."
>
> But we have to have a force in numbers... Make filling
> the Winslow or Flagstaff jail with protesting
> meteorite hunters worth while for the press. The
> Crater people would have to have the sherrif send out
> an extra large paddy waggon to haul us all off to
> jail.
>
> That would make it an issue worthy of reporting,
> wouldn't it?
>
> HA! HA! hee he...
>
> BTW, could you, send me a copy of that letter? And if
> indeed true, it could turn the tide out there on those
> public lands that are under grazing permits.
>
> Though I am doubful of the ramifcations of the letter,
> due to fickle AZ BLM land policy... Just think of it,
> each of us could walk away with 250 lbs of Canyon
> Diablo meteorites! Meteorites that we can own, or
> trade with others, but not sell.
>
> What a deal that would be.
>
> Steve Schoner
> http://www.geocities.com/meteorite_identification.
>
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Steve Schoner <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>
> > To: Bob Martino <martino.6_at_osu.edu>;
> > <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor
> > $$$$
> >
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > No need to apologize, I respect your opinion, and
> > I
> > > know that I can be stubborn on issues that I
> > believe
> > > to be true. And ost of what you say is true. The
> > > Park Service is in dismal straits, and it seems
> > our
> > > illustrious government is inclined to keep it that
> > > way. I worked for the NPS for ten years from 1988
> > to
> > > 1998, so I can relate to what you are saying.
> > >
> > > But that does not take away the argument that the
> > 1872
> > > Mining Act needs to be repealed or amended so that
> > > current mining claims can be re-examined. There
> > has
> > > been some movement over the years to do that, but
> > > mining interests intervene each and every time it
> > > comes up.
> > >
> > > I still believe strongly that Meteor Crater should
> > not
> > > be leased under the provisions of the Mining Act.
> > I
> > > have always had this opinion.
> > >
> > > I remember the days when I went there when it was
> > a
> > > tourist trap. It still is a tourist trap. They
> > were
> > > in the process of re-modeling the museum when I
> > was
> > > last there. And the tour guide had some great
> > > historical stories relating to the crater, but his
> > > understanding of the geology of the site was
> > > deficient. He said that the meteor was under the
> > > southern rim, and this, Dr. Shoemaker, and Dr.
> > Moulton
> > > proved wrong. And Nininger found the sphereoids
> > to
> > > prove it... that the meteorite was vaporized on
> > > impact. There is no massive meteorite under the
> > > southern rim of the crater.
> > >
> > > With regards to interpretation of meteorites, one
> > > thing has bothered me for years, and this is just
> > one
> > > of many things that bothered me. You might want
> > to
> > > see if they still have a slice of the Richardton
> > > Meteorite that fell in 1918 confused with a slice
> > of
> > > weathered Morland Meteorite in their meteorite
> > display
> > > case. I have told the manager about this display
> > > several times over several years and even e-mailed
> > the
> > > manager about it. Still, the last time I saw it,
> > it
> > > was labeled wrong, with the labels on the wrong
> > > meteorites.
> > >
> > > Guess in the manager's estimation, I don't know
> > what I
> > > am talking about.
> > >
> > > All of this aside, I strongly disagree with you
> > > regarding Dr. Nininger's collection of Canyon
> > Diablo
> > > meteorites. In the days that he was there he
> > searched
> > > for meteorites IN BROAD DAYLIGHT for the reason
> > that
> > > the Arizona State Land Department, and maybe even
> > > Meteor Crater managers permitted him to do so. And
> > > they had not denied him permission to take what he
> > > found on state lands outside of the crater
> > property.
> > > What "poacher" would steal in broad daylight right
> > > under the noses of State land, and private
> > managers?
> > > And in 1939 he even used a truck with huge
> > > electromagnets mounted on the back to rake the
> > > northern rim soils for smaller meteorites IN BROAD
> > > DAYLIGHT. And the Barringer's and crater managers
> > knew
> > > that he was there after permission to do so was
> > > granted.
> > >
> > > They knew for years that Dr. Nininger was there
> > > collecting meteorites, and with permission to do
> > so he
> > > continued his research at the museum now ruined
> > near
> > > the current I-40, selling those meteorites to an
> > > interested public. During that time he continued
> > to
> > > make contributions in the field meteor crater
> > science.
> > >
> > > So, now long after he is gone, the current
> > managers
> > > say that he ACTUALLY STOLE the meteorites?
> > >
> > > Dr. Nininger never told me that he stole
> > meteorites
> > > from Meteor Crater, or from the State lands
> > > surrounding the crater. They were, according to
> > what
> > > he related to me, obtained with permits and
> > legally.
> > >
> > > Certainly un-like the current "poachers" that
> > scamper
> > > around the crater AT NIGHT?
> > >
> > > Humm...
> > >
> > > I would rather believe the story of a man that
> > spent
> > > years searching in daylight, than the stories of
> > those
> > > who never met him and know nothing of the
> > situation as
> > > it actually happened..
> > >
> > > As for my project. Yes, I am somewhat bitter about
> > it.
> > > I asked Nininger how I would start to go about
> > it. He
> > > related to me that first I would have to contact
> > the
> > > AZ Bureau of Land Management for a permit to
> > search on
> > > State lands. That is what he did over the years
> > that
> > > he searched the crater. But then he said, I hope
> > that
> > > you have luck at it, for there is some kind of
> > special
> > > arrangement between the folks at Meteor Crater and
> > > BLM.
> > >
> > > He was right.
> > >
> > > What a tremendous waste of time and effort,
> > spanning
> > > years of my life when I was much healthier and
> > younger
> > > to do the work. You have no idea the things I had
> > to
> > > agree to even start the project. And yes I am a
> > > "dealer" of meteorites. (All dealers to the MCE
> > are
> > > "poachers" by the way) Try to get over that bias
> > in
> > > their eyes. Even if you bend over backwards to
> > meet
> > > their conditions to be honest, in their viewpoint
> > a
> > > meteorite dealer is still a thief. I have much
> > more
> > > to say on this, but it is much too involved to
> > post
> > > here.
> > >
> > > And the totality of this issue is really more
> > > complicated than just the Mining Act of 1872, as
> > it
> > > pertains to Meteor Crater proper. It is also the
> > fact
> > > that Arizona State lands are being leased to them
> > > (Meteor Crater Enterprises and Bar-T-Bar Ranch)
> > for
> > > cattle grazing. The mineral rights are not
> > specified,
> > > and at least the last time I checked there was no
> > > provision in the law that all mineral rights go
> > under
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
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Received on Fri 09 May 2003 04:46:07 PM PDT