[meteorite-list] Need help naming new group

From: Sterling K. Webb <kelly_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:22:41 2004
Message-ID: <3EF259E0.9725A728_at_bhil.com>

Hi,

    Not to be overly picky (ha!), but the chances that HED meteorites come
directly from Vesta itself is very small. The orbital mechanics of getting a
chunk from Vesta into an Earth-intersecting orbit are of such a very low
probability that it is virtually impossible that the continuing rain of HED
meteorites could have come directly from Vesta.
    However, there are a number of asteroidal bodies much small than Vesta which
occupy intermediate orbits in the Vesta family from which pieces could be
knocked off which chunks could make it to Earth much more easily. McSween's book
has a good section on them. He calls them the "Vestoids." They appear to be
large "left-overs" from long ago major impacts on Vesta. (We know Vesta has to
have been walloped heavily because so many parts of its internal structure have
been exposed and even removed.)
    It is much more likely that this ancient large impact rubble (the Vestoids)
is the source of the HED's that arrive on Earth. Of course, if we are going
ultimately to a nomenclature that is based on the actual source body for
meteorites, this would mean that the term might end up being "Vestoid
peridotite!"


Sterling K. Webb
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Adam Hupe wrote:

> Dear Jeff and List,
>
> Thank you Jeff for clearing up a very confusing issue. I guess we were
> still thinking 19th century in wanting to honor a pioneer in naming a new
> group. We assumed since no major changes to the HED group had been
> incorporated that the meteoritic community somehow wanted to preserve this
> out-of-date system out of tradition. I see moon rocks were not named after
> the astronauts who found them only a mineral, same for Ninninger. It is
> good to know that the HED designations are today recognized as being
> inadequate for the classification of some new types of achondrites.
>
> Since there is no ground truth for Vesta I can see why this name cannot be
> used in the title leaving only the antiquated HED term. I think adding the
> "HED-clan" term in front of a new group is the way to go. When a probe
> finally reaches Vesta and we have some ground truth then the term "Vesta"
> can be used instead of "HED-clan". It is now obvious to me why the Martian
> and Lunar meteorties were treated differently than the HED group.
>
> I guess you are never too old to learn. This greatly narrows down the
> choice of terms in naming this new group. Jeff may have won with the
> "HED-clan peridotite" which someday may be called a "Vesta peridotite".
> This is much clearer than the term "Olivine Diogenite".
>
> All the best,
>
> Adam Hupe
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Grossman" <jgrossman_at_usgs.gov>
> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 7:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
>
> > At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote:
> > >Dear List,
> > >
> > >A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in and we
> > >are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something to do
> > >with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description titles
> > >have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were submitted.
> > >One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite" and
> > >was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"...
> > >
> > >Adam and Greg Hupe
> > >The Hupe Collection
> > >IMCA 2185
> >
> > The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is up
> to
> > the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person describing the
> > meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she sees fit. In fact, if
> > somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the Editor will still call them
> > by the term she thinks most appropriate. I will certainly advise her to
> > avoid new trivial terms unless they come into common usage.
> >
> > I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are 19th
> > Century coinages. They are remnants of the old Rose-Tschermak-Brezina
> > classification system, most of which is long-dead. They only survive
> > because ancient traditions die hard, and until the 1970's there were very
> > few achondrites available for systematic classification. It is not
> > reasonable to coin new 19th-C style names for things. Science has
> > progressed too far.
> >
> > Adam Hupe also wrote:
> > > >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic
> > > Peridotites" >but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite
> types.
> >
> > This is wrong. New types of martian meteorites are now classified as,
> > e.g., ALH 84001: "martian orthopyroxenite." Trivial names have also not
> > been coined for lunar meteorites: they are classified as "lunar basalt,"
> > "lunar anorthosite," etc. The names of HED-clan achondrites should follow
> > suit. Once we're sure they're from Vesta, they should be called "Vesta
> > peridotite" or some such. For now, terms like "olivine diogenite" or, a
> > better alternative, "HED-clan peridotite" serve to identify both the
> > mineralogy and parent body.
> >
> > jeff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Jeff Grossman" <jgrossman_at_usgs.gov>
> > >To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
> > >
> > >
> > > > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who
> > > > think it should be. Group names come into being through consensus.
> Many
> > > > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody other
> that
> > > > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA
> > > > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted
> (recently,
> > > > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB
> > > > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like meteorites).
> It
> > > > takes time.
> > > >
> > > > My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine
> > > > term. Although it preserves the antiquated, nondescriptive, trivial
> term
> > > > "diogenite," everybody in meteoritics now knows what a diogenite is,
> and
> > > > that it comes from the HED parent body, most likely Vesta. What we
> don't
> > > > need now, in this age where we actually know where meteorites come
> from,
> > >is
> > > > more trivial terms. I strongly doubt that any publication that
> proposes
> > > > calling them something else would ever catch on.
> > > >
> > > > jeff
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 10:55 PM 6/17/2003, Adam Hupe wrote:
> > > > >Dear List Members,
> > > > >
> > > > >It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second
> > >so-called
> > > > >"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five
> including
> > >the
> > > > >three Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five is
> that
> > >it
> > > > >now qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by the
> > > > >Nomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree that
> this
> > > > >ultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group
> and
> > >are
> > > > >willing to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this from
> the
> > > > >same parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be a
> > > > >history-making event. A main group has never been added to the HED
> > > > >assemblage, only subgroups.
> > > > >
> > > > >This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only
> > >weighed
> > > > >49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is the
> most
> > > > >olivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists who
> are
> > > > >working on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group
> since
> > > > >Diogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type of
> > > > >meteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists
> working
> > >on
> > > > >the Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these
> > >five
> > > > >were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites" but
> you
> > > > >cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is where
> the
> > > > >List may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoritic
> > > > >community, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group.
> > > > >
> > > > >We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of
> them
> > >are
> > > > >from witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of
> > >some
> > > > >famous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely related
> > > > >discipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members
> can be
> > > > >very creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of
> history by
> > > > >coming up with a suitable name.
> > > > >
> > > > >In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare material
> > > > >announcement but with some added flare because it is something anyone
> > >could
> > > > >get involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable name
> we
> > > > >will send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge.
> > > > >
> > > > >Wishing everybody the very best,
> > > > >
> > > > >Adam and Greg Hupe
> > > > >The Hupe Collection
> > > > >IMCA 2185
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >______________________________________________
> > > > >Meteorite-list mailing list
> > > > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > > > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
> > > > Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
> > > > US Geological Survey
> > > > 954 National Center
> > > > Reston, VA 20192, USA
> > > > Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ______________________________________________
> > > > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > > > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> > >
> > >
> > >______________________________________________
> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
> > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
> > Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
> > US Geological Survey
> > 954 National Center
> > Reston, VA 20192, USA
> > Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
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> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
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Received on Thu 19 Jun 2003 08:48:33 PM PDT