[meteorite-list] Paradox; we need to understand "time"

From: drtanuki <drtanuki_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:54:01 2004
Message-ID: <3C5FB98F.1FC7BB26_at_tkc.att.ne.jp>

Then, Mr. Yousef,
    You are totally correct in saying all rocks are meteorites as well as all
matter by a broad definition! Dirk Ross....Tokyo
But, on one point I disagree. Time doesn't exist.

M Yousef wrote:

> Dear Bob;
> First, there is a mistake in your question: Nobody says the universe was
> created from "nothing". There is nothing called "nothing". "Nothing" is what
> is not; i.e. what does not exist. Non-existance can never be turned into
> existance.
>
> What is correct is: The universe was created from a singularity; like a
> black hole; a condense matter in almost zero volume (space) and at almost
> zero time. Then this matter in this singularity blasted off in what is known
> as the big bang and it started expanding (and still). This expanding
> universe has in the future three options: 1- keeps expanding for ever (open
> universe), 2- conracts again at some point (closed universe), or 3- stops
> and stay static (flat universe). If it chooses 2 (depending on its mass
> density) it will return to the singularity again and maybe another big bang
> again and so on (pulsating universe).
>
> In either case, one may ask: what was there before this singularity? We can
> turn this question religious if you like, but if you dont prefer we can turn
> it into metaphysics, because our laws of physics and mathematics CAN NOT be
> applied for singularities. This question has been asked before to many
> religion leaders; What was God doing before He created the universe? And the
> answer usualy is: "God created the universe AND time, and not: the universe
> in time".
>
> Away from religion, this question was the subject of intensive debate
> between Aristotle and Plato and their schools:
>
> Plato considers time to be created with the world, while Aristotle believes
> that the world was created in time, which is an infinite and continuous
> extension.
> Plato says:
> "Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in order
> that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a dissolution of
> them, they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern of
> the eternal nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible; for
> the pattern exists from eternity, and the created heaven has been, and is,
> and will be, in all time."
>
> Aristotle believes that Plato’s proposition requires a point in time that is
> the beginning of time and there is no time before it. This is inconceivable
> for Aristotle who adopts Democritus notion of uncreated time and says:
> "But so far as time is concerned we see that all with one exception are
> in agreement in saying that it is uncreated: in fact, it is just this that
> enables Democritus to show that all things cannot have had a becoming: for
> time, he says, is uncreated. Plato alone asserts the creation of time,
> saying that it had a becoming together with the universe, the universe
> according to him having had a becoming."
>
> Time for Aristotle is a continuum and it is always associated with motion,
> and as such, it can’t have a beginning. He says that time is the "number of
> movement in respect of the before and after, and is continuous.... In
> respect of size there is no minimum; for every line is divided ad infinitum.
> Hence it is so with time."
>
> Plato on the other hand cosiders time as the circular motion of the heavens,
> while Aristotle said it is not motion but the measure of motion and he says
> that it is like a circle , a structure that has no beginning or end and so
> is endless in both directions. Since everything in the world is finite, also
> time has to be finite and since it is continuous it has to be a circle
> because we cannot conceive of a first time; for any first time we could
> conceive of a time before that., so time has to be circular.
> Arsitotle says: "Now since time cannot exist and is unthinkable apart from
> the moment, and the moment a kind of middle-point, uniting as it does in
> itself both a beginning and an end, a beginning of future time and an end of
> past time, it follows that there must always be time: for the extremity of
> the last period of time that we take must be found in some moment, since
> time contains no point of contact for us except the moment. Therefore, since
> the moment is both a beginning and an end, there must always be time on both
> sides of it. But if this is true of time, it is evident that it must also be
> true of motion, time being a kind of affection of motion."
>
> WE CONCLUDE HERE that time for Aristotle is circular and the world was
> created somewhere along this circle while for Plato time is continuous and
> was created with the world. Both views have unsolvable drawbacks.
>
> Ibn Arabi (1165 A.D.) shares the idea of a circular endless time with
> Aristotle and that it is a measure of motion, but he does not consider it as
> continuum. On the other hand Ibn Arabi agrees with Plato that time is
> created with the world and refuses Aristotle’s proposal that the world is
> created in time. In fact Plato was right when he considered time to be
> created, but Aristotle refused this because he could not conceive of a
> starting point to the world nor to time. Only after the theory of general
> relativity in 1915 that introduced the idea of ‘curved time’ that we could
> envisage a finite but curved time that has a beginning. By this we could
> combine between Plato’s and Aristotle’s opposing views. However, Ibn Arabi
> did that seven centuries before, and he also explicity spoke about curved
> and relative time (ask for references if you want).
> Ibn Arabi also extends the concept of time into the abstarct world (i.e. not
> material) and he says that the soul that comprehends time has two forces one
> is practical by which it senses material objects and their motion (change in
> state or place) [this is physical time], and the other is theoretical by
> which it gain knowledge (change in status)[this is abstarct time]. Physical
> time is associated with motion in space and it existed with the material
> world while abstarct time is associated with the changes of states of
> knowledge (of the divine spirits (=waves) who are going to create the
> world), and beyond all that there is God in TimeLessNess existance.
>
> Summery:
> As far as the material world is concerned, and that is what we mean by the
> universe, this universe was created from a singularity MORE than 15 billion
> years ago AS MEASURED NOW from our position in the space-time coordinates.
> 15 billion years, that is the distance to the most distant objects detected
> from earth, but not to the singularity itself. Although those most distant
> objects (radio galaxies and Quazars) appear to be close to the beginning of
> the universe, but this does not mean that the singularity is 16 or 17 or
> whatever close number to 15 billion years away. This is because the
> space-time is NOT FLAT which means that time in particular does not measure
> equally in all its points, especially when we approach the singularity. In
> other words, if we move back in time and with the speed of light towards
> this singularity we will never reach it, and what appears to us here few
> seconds it will be there billions of years. This is because of the curvature
> of time.
>
> Cheers
> Mohamed
> ==================================================
>
> >From: BOORX4_at_aol.com
> >To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> >Subject: [meteorite-list] Paradox
> >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:46:43 EST
> >
> >Hi List Members,
> >
> > Correct me if I'm wrong. The Astronomy community theorize that the
> >universe was created in a millisecond, a flash, the big-bang. From nothing
> >to everything, instantaneously.
> > We all accept the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
> >So how can this be?????
> >Inquiring minds would like to know.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Bob
> >
> >______________________________________________
> >Meteorite-list mailing list
> >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
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>
> Sincerely
>
> Mohamed H. Yousef
> ----------------------------------------------
>
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Received on Tue 05 Feb 2002 05:53:04 AM PST