[meteorite-list] Re: Grondine, Native Americans and Campo de Cielo

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:50:30 2004
Message-ID: <20020428180224.33602.qmail_at_web11607.mail.yahoo.com>

Well,

While it does not contain an apology, at least Marco's
message contains an aknowledgement that he does not
know much about this area, and a pledge that he won't
share his ignorance with any of us in the future.

Now if he had "just pointed out not to be
neglected incongruencies in chronology and geography
considering the topic which Ed raised" in the first
place, we could have avoided most of this.

As for Marco's grip on "science", if you go to
"any academic textbook" on meso-america you'll find
that the Maya and Zoque lived in their home areas by
2360 BCE, and they continued to do so until later
times. There is no abuse of chronology or terminology
on my part on this anywhere except in Marco's mind -
he has problems with culture and ethnicity, problems
which some day perhaps he'll be able to work out.

While Marco's acknowledges these peoples advanced
level of culture, he denies them long distance trading
networks. But this trade is well known; a good start
has been made on researching it and this work is
documented, and the information on it is easily found
in more specialized works. Again, there are no
unsubstantiated claims on my part on this, while it is
fairly clear that Marco has problems in his
understanding of the use of maritime resources by
ancient man.

As for "what goes" in professional archaeology, "what
goes" is solid work based on hard evidence, and not
wild guesses based on racial prejudices. When I
called Marco a racist I meant it.

I need to date both the Rio Cuarto impact and the
Campo de Cielo impact to the year if possible. The
Mayan hieroglyphic records contain what appear to be
firm dates for both, if the glyph scholars are reading
them correctly. My raising the topic here was a small
part of a search for hard physical evidence confirming
those readings of the hieroglyphic dates, and I will
continue to work on the problem.

ep

--- Marco Langbroek <marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl>
wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> This is ridiculous, to say the least. Ed Grondine
> now suddenly accusses me
> publicly on this list of racist undertones in my
> previous mail. Which is a
> heavy accussation. And quite over the hill.
>
> I am at a loss to understand Ed Grondine. Those who
> read my previous mail,
> will note that I just pointed out not to be
> neglected incongruencies in
> chronology and geography considering the topic which
> Ed raised. You can
> check those taking any academic textbook on
> meso-American archaeology in
> hand. Why that would be racist, I really don't know.
> It simply is science.
>
> Then I proceeded poking some satyrical fun
> (actually, because I really
> thought that Ed was joking - now it appears he was
> serious after all) the
> subject which was not Native Americans, but the
> imagery on my profession and
> ancient civilizations such as presented in Hollywood
> movies, and quite well
> known to the public -and I happen to be fond of
> Indiana Jones, no matter how
> wrongly these movies portray my profession, or
> ancient cultures of the Near
> East and meso-America. I even have an Indiana Jones
> hat, which I sometimes
> put on during excavations.
>
> I have no doubt about the levels of civilization,
> architecture, trademanship
> and craftmanship of Native Americans, be they today
> or in the past, as they
> stand from current archaeological research. Why Ed
> suggests I am belittling
> Native Americans in these things with my comment on
> his abuse of chronology,
> is unclear to me - there is no suggestion to that
> effect in my previous
> mail, they only exist - apparently- in the head of
> Ed Grondine.
>
> Yes, although I am a professional archaeologist I am
> no expert on
> meso-American culture (although I did get
> introductory training in that
> field as part of my educational curriculum in
> archaeology). But you need not
> be to acknowledge the things I pointed out in the
> first part of my previous
> mail. You only have to have a proper appreciation of
> what goes and what
> doesn't go in professional archaeology, of proper
> archaeological methodology
> and conduct.
>
> This is all I have to say on this. As a last word to
> Ed, I just want to say
> that the accusation of 'racism' when a professional
> archaeologist deems a
> hypothesis highly unlikely and highly
> unsubstantiated, is -allas- by no
> means original. It is about as original as the
> accusation by a football-fan
> that the referee was biased when his team has lost.
> The difference is, that
> Ed's accusation is a bit more heavy than that (what
> he accusses me of, is a
> criminal offence in my country, being a violation of
> article 1 in our
> constitution), and thus quite a lot more
> inappropriate. I hope the list will
> be spared this type af allegations in the future.
> The moment has come for me
> now to simply ignore this all and pull out of the
> ongoing communications on
> Mayans and Campo de Cielo. I have more serious
> things to do.
>
> Sincerely
>
> - Marco Langbroek
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Received on Sun 28 Apr 2002 02:02:24 PM PDT