[meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo impact - 17 February, 2325 BCE?

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:50:30 2004
Message-ID: <20020428073102.97229.qmail_at_web11607.mail.yahoo.com>

Hello Alex,

I am thouroughly drunk, I suppose I also inherited my
ancestors' inability to handle alcohol, but I just
wanted to say "fuck you", and you can pass this on to
Marco ("Porco") too

thor died less than a week ago, and already you're
forgetting everything he taught you

Fuck you - I haven't made any mistakes, you arrogant
white basards have

ep


--- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com> wrote:
> Grondine, you are neither polite nor nice. You
> refuse to admit of your
> mistakes and of your bad behaviour. You are
> sarcastic and snide to people
> you dont even know. Reposting my notes to the list
> does not make you look
> good, it makes you look bad. It is rude. And perhaps
> even ignorant. If you
> feel that you being wrapped up in perfect feeling
> and empathy for the right
> and the just is a proper defense, I can but express
> pity at what life will
> deal you in the fullness of time. Politeness is not
> adhered to because it is
> the 'right' way to behave in some abstract and
> inauthentic way, politeness
> is what sets some of us apart from animals. Dont
> ever repost my messages to
> the list again.
> ARC
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> impact - 17 February, 2325
> BCE?
>
>
> Hello Alex -
>
> My assumption from its content (an ssumption made
> about 4:30 last morning) was that Marco's message
> was
> sent publicly via the list.
>
> Yeah, I'd probably get annoyed if I made ignorant
> racist statements in private and then had the
> misfortune to have them publicly aired.
>
> If that was the case, I'm soooo sorry for my mistake
> and wasting the list participants' time with this.
>
> ep
>
> --- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com>
> wrote:
> > Grondine, it is also considered bad form to
> forward
> > a private email message
> > to a public list. One observes that you behave as
> if
> > you might believe that
> > the rules of polite society do not apply to you,
> > perhaps because you feel
> > deeply and moreover are in sympathy with an
> > historically aggrieved group. In
> > my eyes you are 0 for 2 and may have started a
> flame
> > war. Also against list
> > rules.
> > ARC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 12:07 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> > impact - 17 February, 2325
> > BCE?
> >
> >
> > Hello Art and all -
> >
> > On the topic of list rules, once again,
> Crutchfield,
> > Marco's insulting message was quite public and I
> can
> > not simply allow it to go publicly unanswered.
> >
> > You may be blind to this, but I doubt if others
> here
> > are. I am also fairly certain that Marco's
> > meso-american colleagues upstairs would not be
> blind
> > to it either.
> >
> > Both the Rio Cuarto and Campo de Cielo impacts are
> > fairly serious matters. I can understand
> > scepticism,
> > but Marcos' lengthy message went well beyond that
> -
> > he
> > could have raised his points in 3 sentences
> without
> > wasting so much band width, and I would have
> > responded
> > to those points with a concise statement of fact.
> > Instead Marco resorted to an ad hominem attack ex
> > cathedra, and I pointed out that he was acting
> like
> > a
> > racist, and the only throne he was sitting on in
> > this
> > specific matter was a toilet.
> >
> > I understand that sometimes posts are made without
> > sufficient consideration. Should Marco ever wish
> to
> > publicly apologize for his mis-characterization of
> > Native American peoples, and the belittling tone
> he
> > took with me in his post, I will accept his
> apology.
> >
> > Time constraints are going to cause me to suspend
> > from
> > this list again shortly for a while, so if Marco
> > wants
> > to make that public apology, he should do it
> > quickly.
> >
> > I definitely want to avoid adding more messages on
> > this to the list, as they contribute nothing to an
> > honest discussion of exactly when either the Rio
> > Cuarto impact or Campo de Cielo impact occured.
> > It's
> > a waste of bandwidth, as was much of Marco's
> > original
> > message.
> >
> > ep
> >
> > --- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Grondine, you violated list rules and you owe
> the
> > > list an apology. You can
> > > accept responsibility for that or not.
> > > ARC
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> > > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:15 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> > > impact - 17 February, 2325
> > > BCE?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Alex -
> > >
> > > As Marco's very racist belittling of the Native
> > > American peoples was not done privately, I don't
> > see
> > > why I should simply sit and grin and take it.
> It
> > is
> > > an insult not only to the Maya and Zoque, it is
> an
> > > insult to my own Huron and Monocan ancestors.
> > >
> > > Additionally, by sharing with this list his
> > complete
> > > ignorance of these peoples' cultures, Marco left
> > the
> > > members of the list with an entirely inaccruate
> > > conception of them at the time of both the Rio
> > > Cuarto
> > > and Campo de Cielo impacts.
> > >
> > > If and when Marco should ever choose to
> apologise
> > > for
> > > the belittling tone he took in his message, I
> will
> > > accept his apology.
> > >
> > > ep
> > >
> > > PS - By the way, Brenham was widely traded in
> > North
> > > America long before Europeans ever showed up.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Grondine, You are out of line to post this
> rank
> > > > insult on the open meteorite
> > > > list, as it violates list rules and common
> > > decency.
> > > > You should have replied
> > > > privately. Now you should apologise publicly.
> > > > Alexander Crutchfield
> > > > IMCA #5361
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> > > > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:47 AM
> > > > Subject: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> > > impact
> > > > - 17 February, 2325 BCE?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > uhhh, Marco,
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you want to play endless games about
> > > > cultural
> > > > artifacts and ethnicity, but I don't really
> have
> > > > time
> > > > for them here. I will note in passing that
> there
> > > are
> > > > no migrations into the Maya and Zoque
> homelands
> > > > between 2360 BCE (Rio Cuarto) and the later
> > > periods.
> > > > If you have any information different, then
> > please
> > > > share it with us all.
> > > >
> > > > But this is really aside the point. Rio
> Cuarto
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > 350 MEGATON hole in the ground, and wherever
> the
> > > > Zoque
> > > > (Olmec) and Maya ancestors were in this
> > HEMISPHERE
> > > > they felt its effects.
> > > >
> > > > Since as you admit the Maya and Zoque are not
> > your
> > > > fields of expertise, may I suggest that before
> > you
> > > > start telling everyone about those "primitve"
> > > Native
> > > > Americans, and stating with such authority
> that
> > of
> > > > course they didn't have an advanced culture,
> sea
> > > > going
> > > > commerce, and wide trading networks, that just
> > > > perhaps
> > > > you might want to read up on their cultures if
> > > only
> > > > a
> > > > little bit?
> > > >
> > > > After all, opinions which are not based on
> > > evidence
> > > > often are little more than guesses, and those
> > > > guesses
> > > > often throw more light on the guessor's
> > > > pre-suppositions than the facts. Sometimes,
> for
> > > > example, the guesses can reveal a real racist.
> > > >
> > > > As for background reading, a good source for
> an
> > > > introduction to the area is my original survey
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > area, the link to which I provided. It was
> > posted
> > > to
> > > > "anthropolgy in the news" site out of Texas
> A&M
> > > > several months back, and it is quite likely
> that
> > > > your
> > > > meso-american colleagues upstairs read it.
> > > >
> > > > And please take a copy of your note and my
> reply
> > > > with
> > > > you when you go upstairs to visit them. I am
> > quite
> > > > sure they will enjoy reading it.
> > > >
> > > > I know I will.
> > > >
> > > > ep
> > > >
> > > > --- Marco Langbroek
> <marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > E.P. Grondine wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > It must be remembered that the massive
> > > > > > Rio Cuarto impact (350 megatons, 25
> October,
> > > > 2360
> > > > > BCE)
> > > > > > occured "near" to Campo de Cielo. Before
> > the
> > > > Rio
> > > > > > Cuarto impact event, South America was
> > > populated
> > > > > by
> > > > > > culturally advanced peoples, who were
> killed
> > > by
> > > > > the
> > > > > > impact. These people would have been in
> > trade
> > > > > contact
> > > > > > with both the Olmec and Maya.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is little doubt that the Maya were
> > > > severely
> > > > > > affected by the Rio Cuarto impact.
> > > > > > and hence their interest less than 35
> years
> > > > later
> > > > > > (2325 BCE) in the area they called
> > "Matawil".
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Ed,
> > > > >
> > > > > My apologies, I actually took your initial
> > mail
> > > > > serious and not as the joke
> > > > > as it was intended to be. Maybe I did
> because
> > > > > regularly this kind of posts
> > > > > pop up which >are< meant to be serious by
> the
> > > > person
> > > > > posting it!
> > > > >
> > > > > At any rate I must have been sleeping when I
> > hit
> > > > the
> > > > > reply button for my
> > > > > earlier response. While noting the
> geographic
> > > > > discrepancy, the 2500 year
> > > > > chronological discrepancy (for the Maya: for
> > the
> > > > > Olmecs its a mere 1000
> > > > > years) went completely unnoticed by me.
> Shame,
> > > now
> > > > I
> > > > > won't dare to face my
> > > > > colleagues at the Meso-American department
> one
> > > > floor
> > > > > up in the building for
> > > > > at least 5 days to come... Well, as an
> excuse,
> > I
> > > > am
> > > > > of course a Palaeolithic
> > > > > archaeologist, so Mayans and other
> > meso-American
> > > > > civilizations are not my
> > > > > 'core business'...
> > > > >
> > > > > But would this not make great stuff for a
> > > scenario
> > > > > for a sci-fied-up Indiana
> > > > > Jones Movie? In which our hero enters a Maya
> > > > pyramid
> > > > > in search for a golden
> > > > > statuette, which is the entrance to a time
> > > tunnel
> > > > > transferring him from 1939
> > > > > AD to 300 AD, the start of Maya
> civilization.
> > > That
> > > > > time-tunnel is kept
> > > > > operational by the Maya high priests (not so
> > > > > peculiar, for those guys were
> > > > > obsessed with time keeping and intricate
> > > calendar
> > > > > systems), with the help of
> > > > > some alien technology perhaps. They a.o. use
> > it
> > > to
> > > > > make a trading contact
> > > > > over a gap of 2500 years with those Pampa
> > > indians
> > > > in
> > > > > Argentinia, at 2300 BC,
> > > > > when the Campo de Cielo impact is
> imminent...
> > > > > Our only problem for the scenario would be,
> > how
> > > > the
> > > > > impact at 2325 BC all
> > > > > affected this, or most notably the Maya. For
> > > they
> > > > > simply could re-establish
> > > > > contact by having their time-tunnel connect
> to
> > a
> > > > > moment just prior to the
> > > > > event, isn't it? Hmmmm, let's see; maybe
> they
> > > > > couldn't adjust the length of
> > > > > their time tunnels? No, that won't work,
> > because
> > > > > with a fixed length they
> > > > > could not transfer our Indy from 1939 AD to
> > 300
> > > AD
> > > > > too....rats, and we
> > > > > really can't leave Indy out.....! But wait:
> > > > eerrrrr;
> > > > > maybe they could get
> > > > > connection only to moments in history for
> > which
> > > a
> > > > > very peculiar situation
> > > > > existed, eerrrr, let's say: Venus had to be
> in
> > > > > conjunction with the sun
> > > > > while Jupiter was in the Pleiades or
> something
> > > > like
> > > > > that?! Would fit nice
> > > > > with the Maya calendrical and celestial
> > > mechanics
> > > > > obsession... Yes, that's a
> > > > > solution alright....now let's see, where did
> I
> > > > have
> > > > > Steven Spielberg's
> > > > > phonenumber......?
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > - Marco
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Marco Langbroek private:
> > > > > marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl
> > > > > Leiden University work:
> > > > > m.langbroek_at_arch.leidenuniv.nl
> > > > > Faculty of Archaeology
> > > > > P.O. Box 9515
> > > > > http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek/
> > > > > NL-2300 RA Leiden
> > > > > The Netherlands
> > > > >
> > > > > "What seest thou else
> > > > > In the dark backward and abysm of time?"
> > > > >
> > > > > William Shakespeare: The Tempest act I scene
> 2
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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Received on Sun 28 Apr 2002 03:31:02 AM PDT