[meteorite-list] Re: facing history ( was Hunting scams)

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From: Mike Farmer <farmerm_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:35 2004
Message-ID: <3A9E9F7F.AB19B0FE_at_concentric.net>

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Did you FIND that meteorite or did you buy it? You say you found it, but
information suggests that you also buy, so now there is doubt as to
weather you are telling the truth.
Thank GOD we cut that meteorite, if not how would we know what it was?
Oriented meteorites are nice too, but this one must be opened to read
the story and history of the piece. Yep I SLASHED it, hell I destroyed
the sucker! It is now just a pile of slices, and collectors and
scientists around the world are marveling at it's beauty on the inside,
invisible on the outside.
I love finding meteorites, it is better than buying, but when I buy, I
do NOT LIE! It seems that others have lost sight of the truth, it no
linger matters that to keep trust in science and clients that the TRUTH
is what matters.
So we have doubt as to you and the others only because you cry so loudly
that you only hunt, yet you cry so loudly when other buy what you
wanted. you cant have it both ways Mr Franco, if you are a hunter, then
you will care less what I buy. If you are a buyer then you care as you
missed the piece.
The truth is showing here, cracks are forming in your and many other
"hunters" claims of honesty.
I DO NOT believe you any more.
Orientation is nit unique, it is special, but this was no ordinary
chondrite to keep, no need to cut another L6 or H5 if it is so beautiful
oriented. This one had to be sampled. It was done properly, photos were
taken of almost every slice. ETC ETC.
I am glad we did it, now science has the most spectacular brecciated
Lunar meteorite ever seen to date!
And by the way, almost half of the mass is intact and being donated to a
museum in the USA. It will be kept intact for all to see and preserve.
Show me a European Lunar that is done that way!
Mike Farmer

Michel Franco wrote:

> History will rember that Mike Farmer as salshed into slices a
> wondefull unique oriented lunar meteorite, that Franco was not happy
> with that fact and expressed it. History will also remember that the
> Francos have found Dag 565 a primitive achondrite still unclassiifed
> (analysis started in 1998) that might prove something for both
> ureilites and winonaites parent bodies. And perhaps you Mike Framer
> will rember when I expalined how emotionnal was for both of us to find
> a meteorite from the ground. Emotion, heard of it ? Best
> wishes Michel FRANCO
> 100 Chemin des Campènes
> 74400 CHAMONIX - FRANCE
>
> ----- Message d'origine -----
> De : Mike Farmer
> À : Michel Franco
> Cc : MeteorHntr_at_aol.com ;
> meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> Envoyé : jeudi 1 mars 2001 16:39
> Objet : Hunting scams
> Why would you Care? How would you know who I bought my rock
> from if you never bought any meteorites in Morocco? Mr.
> Franco, it seems that you know the dealers but you never
> deal with them?
> Don't worry about how I pay for my trips, is it your
> business? you say you only find, but I have a very hard tome
> believing that. All I keep hearing from you and others is
> that you only search, ALL I keep hearing from the Moroccans
> is that the "Hunters" buy,
> HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
> And I keep getting shit from the French (several different
> people) that I should not go to Morocco, that it is "their
> territory" If none of you buy, then it matters not if I buy
> there. You may believe in the inherent goodness of mankind,
> I believe what I see, and that is the some serious BULLSHIT
> has been passed of to us all in the last 4 years by some
> people. What do the Moroccans have to gain or lose by
> telling us that the French and some Germans buy from them?
> Why do you think that they make this up. And when I say
> French, it is simply to avoid saying the long list of names
> that I have who buy there. Just tell me why they might spout
> off all of these names, if it is not true. Why do you think
> that they lie? What do they gain, do you think I pay more if
> they tell me that many French "Hunters" buy barrels of
> meteorites?
>
> As far as my stone goes, rest assured that proper payment
> has been and is still under way for those who helped us. We
> paid dearly for a stone which we did not know the type. When
> I bought items that turned out to be non meteoritic, I was
> told "Too bad" this is business" Take your chance. Well, we
> did with this one, and we hit pay dirt. So they took their
> chance, they sold it for over 10 to 20 YEARS salary for an
> average Moroccan, and they were quite happy,
> now I am happy too. Why can't you be, instead of getting
> pissed and giving me shit.
> It seems that the only people who are not happy for us are
> A, the FRENCH HUNTERS, why? If they are hunters, then they
> do not buy, this stone was bought, so it would not have
> fallen into their hands in the first place as they say that
> they DO NOT BUY. So I am seeing some interesting
> contradictions here, if you don't buy, and you only hunt,
> then you would NEVER have got this stone.
> Or is it that you hunt, and you also buy the RARE ONES?
> The plot thickens on the entire "Hunting thing".
> Does this make sense?
> I would like feedback from the list, if these people only
> hunt, why are they pissed that I BOUGHT a certain stone?
> Mike Farmer
>
> Michel Franco wrote:
>
> > Farmer wrote > mars rocks, it would seem that some dishonesty was
> > occuring there, popping out a new piece every few months,
> > as though they did not recognize it from the start as the
> > same damn thing.
> > Mike Farmer > Seems that he should go in some easy places
> > like DaG and prospect himself. he will certainly find all
> > his meteorites on the same day. When some one see
> > dishonest people everywhere, I feel unconfortable. I m a
> > Rouseauist: mankind is good, with few exceptions, very
> > few! I tried to explain one to Mike Farmer that Dag 476
> > and Dag 494 were not found by the same team. And that all
> > other Dag SNC were found during separate expeditions.I
> > never received any comment about that point. Mike you
> > should go back yourself to the hunring field, and pick
> > them up yourself without any backers for your trips. $10
> > per gram was great deal, I hope you have already sent a
> > large reward to Ahmed Amouri. My two crusts. Michel FRANCO
> >
> > MeteorHntr_at_aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > In a message dated 2/28/01 1:44:23 PM Central
> > > Standard Time, GShanos_at_aol.com
> > > writes:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Dear List Members:
> > >>
> > >> What is the official word? Are all the
> > >> Dhofar's 025, 026 an 081 paired?
> > >> Look forward to hearing from everyone.
> > >>
> > >> Sincerely
> > >> Greg Shanos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello Greg,
> > >
> > > I have both he 025 and the 026 for sale and
> > > there is nothing remotely similar
> > > to them.
> > >
> > > With the Dhofar specimens, there is honest
> > > reporting of all the details of
> > > the find; such as the date of find, exact
> > > longitude and latitude of the
> > > finds, accurate TKW info and the like. Also,
> > > these specimens have been found
> > > by professional meteorite hunters and not
> > > simply gathered by nomads and then
> > > run through a system of handlers before brought
> > > to market like most of the
> > > NWA specimens. This is not to be meant as a
> > > "slam" against the NWA's; I have
> > > sold a few NWA's myself and I will sell more in
> > > the future, it is simply a
> > > statement of fact.
> > >
> > > I think Mike Farmer has been the most open
> > > about explaining the state of
> > > meteorite affairs in Morocco. It is important
> > > to know however, the Dhofar
> > > situation is far from like that.
> > >
> > > While much of a meteorite's value should stand
> > > on what type of a meteorite it
> > > is, not based on the exact location where it
> > > was found; one very important
> > > consideration in determining a potential value
> > > is the Total Known Weight
> > > found. It might be easy to figure out that all
> > > (or at least most all) of the
> > > EH3 specimen found in the Sahara will (or
> > > should be) paired, it is next to
> > > impossible to know if your Saharan H5 specimen
> > > is one of a a thousand stones
> > > from one fall, or if it might be the entire
> > > mass of a fall. Or you might not
> > > know if next week a new fragment for the same
> > > fall of your new achondrite
> > > might increase the TKW by 10 fold.
> > >
> > > Thoughts to consider.
> > >
> > > As to the details of your specific question
> > > about pairing, you can find a lot
> > > of great information at Washington University's
> > > site here:
> > >
> > >
> > > ttp://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html
> > >
> > > I hope this helps.
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > Steve Arnold
> >

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Did you FIND that meteorite or did you buy it? You say you found it, but
information suggests that you also buy, so now there is doubt as to weather
you are telling the truth.
 Thank GOD we cut that meteorite, if not how would we know what it was?
Oriented meteorites are nice too, but this one must be opened to read the
story and history of the piece. Yep I SLASHED it, hell I destroyed the
sucker! It is now just a pile of slices, and collectors and scientists
around the world are marveling at it's beauty on the inside, invisible
on the outside.
 I love finding meteorites, it is better than buying, but when I buy,
I do NOT LIE! It seems that others have lost sight of the truth, it no
linger matters that to keep trust in science and clients that the TRUTH
is what matters.
 So we have doubt as to you and the others only because you cry so loudly
that you only hunt, yet you cry so loudly when other buy what you wanted.
you cant have it both ways Mr Franco, if you are a hunter, then you will
care less what I buy. If you are a buyer then you care as you missed the
piece.
 The truth is showing here, cracks are forming in your and many other
"hunters" claims of honesty.
 I DO NOT believe you any more.
 Orientation is nit unique, it is special, but this was no ordinary
chondrite to keep, no need to cut another L6 or H5 if it is so beautiful
oriented. This one had to be sampled. It was done properly, photos were
taken of almost every slice. ETC ETC.
 I am glad we did it, now science has  the most spectacular brecciated
Lunar meteorite ever seen to date!
 And by the way, almost half of the mass is intact and being donated
to a museum in the USA. It will be kept intact for all to see and preserve.
Show me a European Lunar that is done that way!
 Mike Farmer
Michel Franco wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE> History will rember that Mike
Farmer as salshed into slices a wondefull unique oriented lunar meteorite,
that Franco was not happy with that fact and expressed it. History
will also remember that the Francos have found Dag 565 a primitive achondrite
still unclassiifed (analysis started in 1998) that might prove something
for both ureilites and winonaites parent bodies. And
perhaps you Mike Framer will rember when I expalined how emotionnal was
for both of us to find a meteorite from the ground. Emotion, heard of it
? Best wishes  Michel FRANCO
 100 Chemin des Campènes
 74400 CHAMONIX - FRANCE
<blockquote
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Message d'origine -----</div>

<div style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">De
: <a href="mailto:farmerm_at_concentric.net" title="farmerm@concentric.net">Mike
Farmer</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">À : <a href="mailto:MICH-FRANCO_at_wanadoo.fr" title="MICH-FRANCO@wanadoo.fr">Michel
Franco</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Cc : <a href="mailto:MeteorHntr_at_aol.com" title="MeteorHntr@aol.com">MeteorHntr@aol.com</a>
; <a href="mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com" title="meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com</a></div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Envoyé : jeudi 1 mars 2001
16:39</div>

<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">Objet : Hunting scams</div>
 Why would you Care? How would you know who I bought my rock from
if you never bought any meteorites in Morocco? Mr. Franco, it seems that
you know the dealers but you never deal with them?
 Don't worry about how I pay for my trips, is it your business? you
say you only find, but I have a very hard tome believing that. All I keep
hearing from you and others is that you only search, ALL I keep hearing
from the Moroccans is that  the "Hunters"  buy, HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
 And I keep getting shit from the French (several different people)
that I should not go to Morocco, that it is "their territory" If none of
you buy, then it matters not if I buy there. You may believe in the inherent
goodness of mankind, I believe what I see, and that is the some serious
BULLSHIT has been passed of to us all in the last 4 years by some people.
What do the Moroccans have to gain or lose by telling us that the French
and some Germans buy from them? Why do you think that they make this up.
And when I say French, it is simply to avoid saying the long list of names
that I have who buy there. Just tell me why they might spout off all of
these names, if it is not true. Why do you think that they lie? What do
they gain, do you think I pay more if they tell me that many French "Hunters"
buy barrels of meteorites?
As far as my stone goes, rest assured that proper payment has been and
is still under way for those who helped us. We paid dearly for a stone
which we did not know the type. When I bought items that turned out to
be non meteoritic, I was told "Too bad" this is business" Take your chance.
Well, we did with this one, and we hit pay dirt. So they took their chance,
they sold it for over 10 to 20 YEARS salary for an average Moroccan, and
they were quite happy,
 now I am happy too. Why can't you be, instead of getting pissed and
giving me shit.
 It seems that the only people who are not happy for us are A, the FRENCH
HUNTERS, why? If they are hunters, then they do not buy, this stone was
bought, so it would not have fallen into their hands in the first place
as they say that they DO NOT BUY. So I am seeing some interesting contradictions
here, if you don't buy, and you only hunt, then you would NEVER have got
this stone.
 Or is it that you hunt, and you also buy the RARE ONES?
 The plot thickens on the entire "Hunting thing".
 Does this make sense?
 I would like feedback from the list, if these people only hunt, why
are they pissed that I BOUGHT a certain stone?
 Mike Farmer
Michel Franco wrote:
<blockquote TYPE="CITE"><style></style>
Farmer wrote<I
do not doubt it, but after the Dar al Gani mars rocks, it would seem that
some dishonesty was occuring there, popping out a new piece every few months,
as though they did not recognize it from the start as the same damn thing.
 Mike Farmer > Seems that he should
go in some easy places like DaG and prospect himself. he will certainly
find all his meteorites on the same day. When some one see dishonest people
everywhere, I feel unconfortable. I m a Rouseauist: mankind is good, with
few exceptions, very few! I tried to explain one to
Mike Farmer that Dag 476 and Dag 494 were not found by the same team. And
that all other Dag SNC were found during separate expeditions.I never received
any comment about that point. Mike you should go back
yourself to the hunring field, and pick them up yourself without any backers
for your trips. $10 per gram was great deal, I hope you have already sent
a large reward to Ahmed Amouri. My two crusts.
Michel FRANCO
<blockquote
 style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">  
<a href="mailto:MeteorHntr_at_aol.com">MeteorHntr@aol.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote TYPE="CITE"> 
In a message dated 2/28/01
1:44:23 PM Central Standard Time, GShanos_at_aol.com
 writes:
  
  
  
<blockquote
 style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"
 TYPE="CITE"> 
  
  
  
Dear List Members:
What is the official word? 
Are all the Dhofar's 025, 026 an 081 paired?
 Look forward to hearing
from everyone.
Sincerely
 Greg Shanos</blockquote>

  
  
Hello Greg,
I have both he
025 and the 026 for sale and there is nothing remotely similar
 to them.
With the Dhofar
specimens, there is honest reporting of all the details of
 the find; such
as the date of find, exact longitude and latitude of the
 finds, accurate
TKW info and the like.  Also, these specimens have been found
 by professional
meteorite hunters and not simply gathered by nomads and then
 run through
a system of handlers before brought to market like most of the
 NWA specimens. 
This is not to be meant as a "slam" against the NWA's; I have
 sold a few NWA's
myself and I will sell more in the future, it is simply a
 statement of
fact.
I think Mike
Farmer has been the most open about explaining the state of
 meteorite affairs
in Morocco.  It is important to know however, the Dhofar
 situation is
far from like that.
While much of
a meteorite's value should stand on what type of a meteorite it
 is, not based
on the exact location where it was found; one very important
 consideration
in determining a potential value is the Total Known Weight
 found. 
It might be easy to figure out that all (or at least most all) of the
 EH3 specimen
found in the Sahara will (or should be) paired, it is next to
 impossible to
know if your Saharan H5 specimen is one of a a thousand stones
 from one fall,
or if it might be the entire mass of a fall.  Or you might not
 know if next
week a new fragment for the same fall of your new achondrite
 might increase
the TKW by 10 fold.
Thoughts to consider.
As to the details
of your specific question about pairing, you can find a lot
 of great information
at Washington University's site here:
<a href="http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html">http://epsc.wustl.edu/admin/resources/moon_meteorites.html</a>
I hope this helps.
Steve
Steve Arnold</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>

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