[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites

From: dean bessey <deanbessey_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:15 2004
Message-ID: <LAW2-F107rZyXVMM70y00006b28_at_hotmail.com>

Lets see. If a nomad wanted to sell his stuff in tucson:
(1)Airfare $1000
(2)Show expense ($110 a night plus the cost of the show promoter)
(3)Cost of getting the american VISA to go (Not necessarily easy - europeans
and North Americans take the ease of travel for granted - If mastercard
likes you enough you can be almost anywhere in the world on 24 hours notice.
Everybody in the world dont think like this).
(4)Once in tucson you will likely have to rent a car to get heavy packages
from the airport to the show (And back)
(5)Living expences for two to three weeks
(6)You cant do a two week show by yourself so you hire somebody (Probably
cheaper to bring somebody with you from the sahara (Another $1000 airfare).
A couple large moroccan dealers have 2 or 3 people working for them in
denver and tucson.
(7)Shipping cost. I spend $800 on average every time I get a package from
morocco in shipping. Think about the shipping cost of bringing enough stuff
to put off a show. Dont forget the cost of getting the stuff from algeria to
the port in casablanca and rabat. Not to mention the cost of shipping back
the stuff that dont sell.
(8)Cost of taxes, customs broker ect. This wont likely be thousands but will
certainly be in the hundreds of dollars. Dont forget the cost of export
permits in morocco.
This of course assumes that the nomad can speak english (Which few can do).
I havent even started in with the cost of the material itself that the nomad
turned dealer is selling. I have contributed over $100,000 to the economy of
eastern Morocco in the last 8 months. Farmer said he is over $200,000. So
just the two of us have spent well over a quarter million dollars in morocco
in the very recent past. And there are a lot more buyers than us. The stuff
is not cheap and the nomads know what stuff is selling for. Its not unusual
for a nomad to make in a couple month trip more than his father made in his
lifetime. And they want us as buyers to make lots of money from their
meteorites because as farmer says "They do want us back every 3 weeks". I
would add to that that They also want us to drop as much cash as possible in
those 3 week intervals.
Dont forget the fact if you buy 100 kilos of meteorites that once you get
home you discover that you have a couple kilos of non meteoritic material
that you bought and paid the shipping to send over. Some of the meteor
wrongs are really good. The nomads dont have any warranties or return
policies on their meteorites. You make an analysis of what you are buying in
the field and hope that you are right - often without as much as the benefit
of a cut surface. You make a guess on a classification using little more
than a strong magnet. Not exactly something that is going to give you 100%
accuracy with your classifications. You make an educated guess and hope for
the best. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you dont.
You will notice some moroccan fossil dealers in tucson and denver selling
meteorites that they bought from the nomads themselves. Just businessmen
trying to make a living themselves. And they take the risk of having a bad
show from the nomads. (Just because a nomad spends thousands of dollars
going to tucson dont mean that they will sell anything). The nomads want
those guys to make lots of money of their meteorites to. Because then when
the fossil dealers go to the next show they will buy more stuff from the
nomads and the nomads make more sales. Money is being made. Otherwise i
wouldent be continueing to bring stuff across the pond myself (Another 194
kilos arriving at the airport in a couple hours time - I have to spend the
rest of the afternoon fighting with canadian customs).
There is no set price. You could pay anything and if you buy everything in a
nomads sack you will get a better price than if you pick from it. The same
holds true in denver. If you visit my own room (#390) in denver this
september and look over one of the tables that I will have piled with nomad
meteorites that I will be selling at the denver show I might be willing to
come down a bit if you take everything on the table to.
Cheers
DEAN
>















>From: Mike Farmer <farmerm_at_concentric.net>
>To: Rob and Colleen <iguana_at_pcez.com>
>CC: "meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com"
><meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites
>Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 11:40:20 -0700
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>
>Rob, all I can say is that the nomads and middle-men in Morocco have
>been doing business this way for thousands of years. I often drive along
>the route of 1000 Kasbahs, along the Draa river, there are literally
>thousands of ruined castles, the fortresses of the wealthy in ancient
>times, used to protect the villages. Why were the here? It was the main
>trading route from all of central and Saharan Africa to the coast. The
>Moroccans have been traders forever. They still do business the same
>way, like horse trading, they start high, you start low and meet
>somewhere in the middle. They LOVE business this way. They will not do
>it any other way. It will be literally impossible to get a Moroccan to
>organize and sell like we do, they do not like it, do not trust it, and
>WILL NOT DO IT. It is their culture, they like a gamble, they like hard
>bargaining,. if you pay the price they ask, they will think you are an
>idiot and not do business with you again. In our culture, an idiot who
>gets ripped off and pays too much is an idiot to be tapped into and
>taken for as much as possible, to them, such a person is not worthy of
>selling to.
>So you see, their business practices differ greatly from ours. Trust me,
>we will never fully understand their culture with our own way of
>thinking. They are happy, they always say the same thing when I buy,
>"God willing it is a good meteorite, you make alot of money and come
>back to buy more" They ALWAYS say this, they also mean it! They want me
>to come back every 3 weeks and buy.
>I hope this give a little insight into this topic. In our own business
>ideas, it may seem that they are getting the short end of the stick, but
>in their mind, they are quite content with this, they do not want more,
>and to try and organize them along western business practices would take
>away their far older customs of doing business. It wont happen. They
>will not change, they don't want to change, and to ask them to change
>would highly anger them.
>Mike Farmer
>
>Rob and Colleen wrote:
>
> > Thanks Mike-
> >
> > It's good to hear they got thrown some bones for such a valuable
> > piece. I had forgotten to factor in the labor costs along with the
> > cutting loss and donations. Again, the lack of internal representation
> > surprises me. When will we see a savvy businessman heading things up
> > in Morocco, teaching locals to cut, classify and polish? Again I have
> > little knowledge of the social structure there or the nomadic mindset.
> > The analogy of the fruit grower lends to the fact that there is a
> > place to send the fruit for processing or sale to a population of
> > buyers. Outside of shows, the meteorite market (not Twelker :^))
> > exists mainly in cyberspace. Seems like it would be easy for someone
> > over there to tap into that market.
> >
> > I am surprised they were asking market value at the shows in Europe.
> > Obviously they sell to dealers at below market value and could do
> > better at a show selling somewhere between dealer price and market
> > value.
> >
> > Much to understand with these nomads, we need one on the list.
> >
> > Seems to be the case in most third world ventures "10% of the purchase
> > of this macadamia nut crunch bar goes to support tropical
> > reforesation" The other 90% into production, packaging, distribution,
> > and the guy whose idea it was.
> >
> > I just fear that the drive to move mass quantities of material for the
> > quick gain is going to bite them later when the cost of living
> > increases and the meteorite discoveries slow down. Right back into
> > poverty in all walks of life. You can't add money to poulation without
> > it affecting everyone. A controlled, educated release would be the
> > smarter way to go in my opinion, set the market themselves, really
> > improve things when that lunar is discovered. Something about a bird
> > in the hand... You say they are happy, I believe you. You are still
> > alive (some worried) and continue to do business over there with the
> > same people. I am sure $10K+ over there stretches about as far as the
> > NWA 482 did for you and your associates here.
> >
> > I still thik they are cutting off their nose to spite their face and
> > will regret it down the road but there are certainly larger worries
> > for the leaders of those countries than the nomads collecting rocks.
> > Finders Keepers, also a tricky subject. To truely have long term
> > economic improvement some govermental cooperation and intervention
> > needs to be balanced with the individual gains of the finders. From
> > what has been said about bribes, this would take a complete social
> > overhaul.
> >
> > The NWA situation shows quite the contrast compared to here where
> > something like Monahans is strung out forever before it is allowed to
> > the finders, then auctioned off for college tuition X7 by a
> > businessman who knows the market's ebb and flow. That businessman then
> > pays his taxes and....you get the idea
> >
> > To sum up, I don't see the dealers as the saviors of the Sahara, which
> > is not far from some of the latest arguments. Same goes for the
> > hunters. To do this would require teaching them to better help
> > themselves, beyond the act of collecting. The countries and their
> > people are healthier, but not thriving. The possibility for economic
> > hardship when this is all done is likely. But for now, the nomads are
> > happy, the dealers are happy, and the collectors are ecstatic. NWA
> > meteorites came in like a hurricane, lets all hope that when the leave
> > they leave gracefully with minimal impact to the fragile nations
> > involved.
> >
> > Again Mike thanks for your input, don't mean to jump on NWA 482 but it
> > is a stellar example.
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Farmer wrote:
> >
> >> Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want you all to
> >> know, that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions to
> >> our suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over
> >> $10,000 more. Yes the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the
> >> Moroccans, the money we sent was a gift. They see business as
> >> completed when the deal is done, when we pay high prices and get a
> >> bad meteorite, we lose, when we get a good one, we win. Our people
> >> are extremely happy. No they are not making as much money as us, but
> >> when you look at profit margins, I think they are getting the best
> >> deal. Many years salery every couple of months for little work. When
> >> they sell them to us, they are finished, money in hand,.our work
> >> however, has just begun. I can tell you from 8 trips to the Sahara,
> >> when we buy there, by the time all expenses are paid and works is
> >> done, the price we have into the meteorites has doubled!
> >> It is hard work, and I invite anyone who doubts that to come work
> >> for me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with the large amount
> >> of meteorites that I have brought home.
> >> The people in North Africa do know the values, many of them were in
> >> Europe trying to sell meteorites at market value. They also failed,
> >> as they dont know everything they need to know about the business. I
> >> assume it is why a fruit grower wholesales his produce out to mass
> >> buyers, it is simple, they get paid a lump sum, and their work is
> >> done, imagine if every fruit grower sold his own items. They would
> >> all go bankrupt very quickly. You need a business person, someone
> >> who knows the people and the market, who can reach the buyers. The
> >> Moroccans know this and dont waste their time trying to sell
> >> individual pieces. They want to move large volumes of material. I
> >> think they are smart in doing business this way.
> >> I know the DeBeers diamond mines use large crushers to smash the
> >> rock to get the diamonds. The machines are set up for maximum
> >> efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste their
> >> time looking for the large diamons that certianly come out
> >> sometimes, all rock goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds
> >> are destroyed as ther are so few that they would lose time and money
> >> looking for them. It is sad, but much more efficient to destroy them
> >> and get more small ones.
> >> It is the same with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare
> >> ones. Tehy are willing to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of
> >> material. In the end it is more efficent and profitable for them.
> >> There is no set price for different meteorites, the rare ones,
> >> usually achondrites, are more expensive, but it takes ahrd barganing
> >> and when the Moroccans reach a price where they are happy, they
> >> sell. Each piece is different, they also buy them after all.
> >> Does this make sense?
> >> Mike Farmer
> >>
> >> Rob and Colleen wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Jim Strope wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> ...This grading of material and offering higher prices is what is
> >> >> disturbing
> >> >> some of the earlier buyers who bought rare material for pennies
> >> >> per gram and
> >> >> tried to sell it to you for 100s of dollars per gram. This is
> >> >> what is
> >> >> making them mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone
> >> >> up
> >> >> considerably, even the common stuff.
> >> >
> >> > -This really doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price
> >> > to up along with demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true
> >> > value of the material in today's collector market.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per
> >> >> gram was so
> >> >> high that we were chastised by some European dealers for paying
> >> >> so much in
> >> >> the field. We did not know it was Lunar at the time. We guessed
> >> >> it was a
> >> >> Howardite or possibly a Eucrite. If it had turned out to be a
> >> >> Eucrite we
> >> >> would have been lucky to just get our money back. We took a
> >> >> chance. NWA
> >> >> 482 had been offered to French and German dealers before us but
> >> >> they
> >> >> declined to pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are
> >> >> kicking
> >> >> themselves for that decision. Would you believe that even after
> >> >> classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike was
> >> >> scolded
> >> >> again in Paris because we paid too much and were driving up the
> >> >> prices.?
> >> >
> >> >> -Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 before the cutting loss
> >> >> and scientific donation had an estimated value of 4-4.5 million
> >> >> dollars based on the opening offers to the public. A gamble yes,
> >> >> as it could have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite
> >> >> valuable. To be chastised for approximating the true worth of the
> >> >> material speaks volumes for the one chastising.
> >> >
> >> >> Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare material in Morocco or any
> >> >> other
> >> >> country for rare material.
> >> >
> >> > -What is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron?
> >> > -What are they asking
> >> >
> >> > The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a
> >> > collector who buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and
> >> > sells a little on eBay to recoup on the price of the piece I want,
> >> > far from profit other than cheaper meteorites in the long run. The
> >> > business of collecting.
> >> >
> >> > The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's land
> >> > rights is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are
> >> > stealing from the mouths of the nomads. They argue that they are
> >> > contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on this point I
> >> > agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when ultra
> >> > valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further
> >> > compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent
> >> > on the next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these
> >> > answers. Human nature, however, is leaning me toward the belief
> >> > that the nomads are getting the short end. While they are making
> >> > money, and more than their collective ancestors ever did, I doubt
> >> > they are getting even close to the value of the material they are
> >> > out walking in some the the harshest conditions on the planet to
> >> > collect and drag to some market. Now I am fully aware that such is
> >> > the case in any business. The laborers don't get paid the same as
> >> > the man at the desk. The migrant worker who picks berries makes
> >> > more than his parents ever did but he will never be able to go into
> >> > business for himself. Agreed. But the level of argument in this
> >> > scenario has escalated to the point that those who argue for the
> >> > people are a bit misguided in my book. The nomads are stymied by
> >> > the fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a certain level
> >> > and the hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab what
> >> > they want and pay the government instead of the people. For reasons
> >> > I can not understand, the nomads have no internal representation to
> >> > the outside world, certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet
> >> > they have the richest free market supply in the world. Maybe they
> >> > are happy to get what they they get, but they are sitting on a gold
> >> > mine.
> >> >
> >> > Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of
> >> > this science will pay attention to this time, and names will be
> >> > remembered. Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this.
> >> >
> >> > On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some
> >> > mistakes have already been made and will never be resolved. Others
> >> > haven't happened yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters
> >> > and nomads) need to evaluate which side of this sword they are on
> >> > and how they want to be remembered, not what the other guy is
> >> > doing. History will worry about the other guy. Collectors will pay
> >> > what they decide to pay regardless of the collection practices of
> >> > the dealer and will certainly be remembered as a collective.
> >> >
> >> > To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way earlier in
> >> > this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath,
> >> > and hold it.
> >> >
> >> > The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about
> >> > yourself and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a
> >> > cheap meteorite more than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara
> >> > when we put a new piece on our shelf?
> >> >
> >> > My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts.
> >> > Feel free to set me straight.
> >> > Rob Wesel
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Jim Strope
> >> >> 421 Fourth Street
> >> >> Glen Dale, WV 26038
> >> >>
> >> >> THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD:
> >> >> http://www.nwa482.com
> >> >>
> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> >> From: "Bob King" <lakewind_at_infi.net>
> >> >> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> >> >> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:38 PM
> >> >> Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hello everyone,
> >> >> > With the current thread about the so-called plundering of
> >> >> desert
> >> >> > meteorites underway, I was curious how much the Moroccan
> >> >> > nomads are typically offered for their hauls of common
> >> >> weathered
> >> >> > chondrites. What do these finders usually ask and what is a
> >> >> typical
> >> >> > per gram price they are offered by American and French dealers?
> >> >>
> >> >> > Thanks!
> >> >> > Bob
> >> >> >
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> >> >> > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> >> >> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Meteorite-list mailing list
> >> >> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> >> >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >> >

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Received on Sat 30 Jun 2001 07:20:22 PM PDT