[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites
From: Rob and Colleen <iguana_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:15 2004 Message-ID: <3B3D9784.EC935599_at_pcez.com> --------------E739085E43565E9053B5A775 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Mike- It's good to hear they got thrown some bones for such a valuable piece. I had forgotten to factor in the labor costs along with the cutting loss and donations. Again, the lack of internal representation surprises me. When will we see a savvy businessman heading things up in Morocco, teaching locals to cut, classify and polish? Again I have little knowledge of the social structure there or the nomadic mindset. The analogy of the fruit grower lends to the fact that there is a place to send the fruit for processing or sale to a population of buyers. Outside of shows, the meteorite market (not Twelker :^)) exists mainly in cyberspace. Seems like it would be easy for someone over there to tap into that market. I am surprised they were asking market value at the shows in Europe. Obviously they sell to dealers at below market value and could do better at a show selling somewhere between dealer price and market value. Much to understand with these nomads, we need one on the list. Seems to be the case in most third world ventures "10% of the purchase of this macadamia nut crunch bar goes to support tropical reforesation" The other 90% into production, packaging, distribution, and the guy whose idea it was. I just fear that the drive to move mass quantities of material for the quick gain is going to bite them later when the cost of living increases and the meteorite discoveries slow down. Right back into poverty in all walks of life. You can't add money to poulation without it affecting everyone. A controlled, educated release would be the smarter way to go in my opinion, set the market themselves, really improve things when that lunar is discovered. Something about a bird in the hand... You say they are happy, I believe you. You are still alive (some worried) and continue to do business over there with the same people. I am sure $10K+ over there stretches about as far as the NWA 482 did for you and your associates here. I still thik they are cutting off their nose to spite their face and will regret it down the road but there are certainly larger worries for the leaders of those countries than the nomads collecting rocks. Finders Keepers, also a tricky subject. To truely have long term economic improvement some govermental cooperation and intervention needs to be balanced with the individual gains of the finders. From what has been said about bribes, this would take a complete social overhaul. The NWA situation shows quite the contrast compared to here where something like Monahans is strung out forever before it is allowed to the finders, then auctioned off for college tuition X7 by a businessman who knows the market's ebb and flow. That businessman then pays his taxes and....you get the idea To sum up, I don't see the dealers as the saviors of the Sahara, which is not far from some of the latest arguments. Same goes for the hunters. To do this would require teaching them to better help themselves, beyond the act of collecting. The countries and their people are healthier, but not thriving. The possibility for economic hardship when this is all done is likely. But for now, the nomads are happy, the dealers are happy, and the collectors are ecstatic. NWA meteorites came in like a hurricane, lets all hope that when the leave they leave gracefully with minimal impact to the fragile nations involved. Again Mike thanks for your input, don't mean to jump on NWA 482 but it is a stellar example. Rob Mike Farmer wrote: > Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want you all to > know, that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions to > our suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over > $10,000 more. Yes the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the > Moroccans, the money we sent was a gift. They see business as > completed when the deal is done, when we pay high prices and get a bad > meteorite, we lose, when we get a good one, we win. Our people are > extremely happy. No they are not making as much money as us, but when > you look at profit margins, I think they are getting the best deal. > Many years salery every couple of months for little work. When they > sell them to us, they are finished, money in hand,.our work however, > has just begun. I can tell you from 8 trips to the Sahara, when we > buy there, by the time all expenses are paid and works is done, the > price we have into the meteorites has doubled! > It is hard work, and I invite anyone who doubts that to come work for > me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with the large amount of > meteorites that I have brought home. > The people in North Africa do know the values, many of them were in > Europe trying to sell meteorites at market value. They also failed, as > they dont know everything they need to know about the business. I > assume it is why a fruit grower wholesales his produce out to mass > buyers, it is simple, they get paid a lump sum, and their work is > done, imagine if every fruit grower sold his own items. They would all > go bankrupt very quickly. You need a business person, someone who > knows the people and the market, who can reach the buyers. The > Moroccans know this and dont waste their time trying to sell > individual pieces. They want to move large volumes of material. I > think they are smart in doing business this way. > I know the DeBeers diamond mines use large crushers to smash the > rock to get the diamonds. The machines are set up for maximum > efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste their time > looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, all > rock goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as > ther are so few that they would lose time and money looking for them. > It is sad, but much more efficient to destroy them and get more small > ones. > It is the same with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare > ones. Tehy are willing to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of > material. In the end it is more efficent and profitable for them. > There is no set price for different meteorites, the rare ones, usually > achondrites, are more expensive, but it takes ahrd barganing and when > the Moroccans reach a price where they are happy, they sell. Each > piece is different, they also buy them after all. > Does this make sense? > Mike Farmer > > Rob and Colleen wrote: > >> >> >> Jim Strope wrote: >> >> > ...This grading of material and offering higher prices is what is >> > disturbing >> > some of the earlier buyers who bought rare material for pennies per >> > gram and >> > tried to sell it to you for 100s of dollars per gram. This is >> > what is >> > making them mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone >> > up >> > considerably, even the common stuff. >> >> -This really doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price >> to up along with demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true >> value of the material in today's collector market. >> >> > >> > >> > When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per >> > gram was so >> > high that we were chastised by some European dealers for paying so >> > much in >> > the field. We did not know it was Lunar at the time. We guessed >> > it was a >> > Howardite or possibly a Eucrite. If it had turned out to be a >> > Eucrite we >> > would have been lucky to just get our money back. We took a >> > chance. NWA >> > 482 had been offered to French and German dealers before us but >> > they >> > declined to pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are kicking >> > themselves for that decision. Would you believe that even after >> > classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike was >> > scolded >> > again in Paris because we paid too much and were driving up the >> > prices.? >> >> > -Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 before the cutting loss and >> > scientific donation had an estimated value of 4-4.5 million dollars >> > based on the opening offers to the public. A gamble yes, as it >> > could have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite >> > valuable. To be chastised for approximating the true worth of the >> > material speaks volumes for the one chastising. >> >> > Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare material in Morocco or any >> > other >> > country for rare material. >> >> -What is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron? >> -What are they asking >> >> The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a >> collector who buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and >> sells a little on eBay to recoup on the price of the piece I want, >> far from profit other than cheaper meteorites in the long run. The >> business of collecting. >> >> The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's land >> rights is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are >> stealing from the mouths of the nomads. They argue that they are >> contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on this point I >> agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when ultra >> valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further >> compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent >> on the next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these >> answers. Human nature, however, is leaning me toward the belief >> that the nomads are getting the short end. While they are making >> money, and more than their collective ancestors ever did, I doubt >> they are getting even close to the value of the material they are >> out walking in some the the harshest conditions on the planet to >> collect and drag to some market. Now I am fully aware that such is >> the case in any business. The laborers don't get paid the same as >> the man at the desk. The migrant worker who picks berries makes more >> than his parents ever did but he will never be able to go into >> business for himself. Agreed. But the level of argument in this >> scenario has escalated to the point that those who argue for the >> people are a bit misguided in my book. The nomads are stymied by the >> fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a certain level and >> the hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab what they >> want and pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can >> not understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the >> outside world, certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they >> have the richest free market supply in the world. Maybe they are >> happy to get what they they get, but they are sitting on a gold >> mine. >> >> Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of >> this science will pay attention to this time, and names will be >> remembered. Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this. >> >> On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some >> mistakes have already been made and will never be resolved. Others >> haven't happened yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and >> nomads) need to evaluate which side of this sword they are on and >> how they want to be remembered, not what the other guy is doing. >> History will worry about the other guy. Collectors will pay what >> they decide to pay regardless of the collection practices of the >> dealer and will certainly be remembered as a collective. >> >> To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way earlier in >> this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, >> and hold it. >> >> The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about >> yourself and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap >> meteorite more than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we >> put a new piece on our shelf? >> >> My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. >> Feel free to set me straight. >> Rob Wesel >> >> >> > Jim Strope >> > 421 Fourth Street >> > Glen Dale, WV 26038 >> > >> > THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD: >> > http://www.nwa482.com >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Bob King" <lakewind_at_infi.net> >> > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com> >> > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:38 PM >> > Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites >> > >> > > Hello everyone, >> > > With the current thread about the so-called plundering of desert >> > > meteorites underway, I was curious how much the Moroccan >> > > nomads are typically offered for their hauls of common weathered >> > > chondrites. What do these finders usually ask and what is a >> > typical >> > > per gram price they are offered by American and French dealers? >> > > Thanks! >> > > Bob >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com >> > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> > > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Meteorite-list mailing list >> > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com >> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> --------------E739085E43565E9053B5A775 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> Thanks Mike- <P>It's good to hear they got thrown some bones for such a valuable piece. I had forgotten to factor in the labor costs along with the cutting loss and donations. Again, the lack of internal representation surprises me. When will we see a savvy businessman heading things up in Morocco, teaching locals to cut, classify and polish? Again I have little knowledge of the social structure there or the nomadic mindset. The analogy of the fruit grower lends to the fact that there is a place to send the fruit for processing or sale to a <U>population</U> of buyers. Outside of shows, the meteorite market (not Twelker :^)) exists mainly in cyberspace. Seems like it would be easy for someone over there to tap into that market. <P>I am surprised they were asking market value at the shows in Europe. Obviously they sell to dealers at below market value and could do better at a show selling somewhere between dealer price and market value. <P>Much to understand with these nomads, we need one on the list. <P>Seems to be the case in most third world ventures "10% of the purchase of this macadamia nut crunch bar goes to support tropical reforesation" The other 90% into production, packaging, distribution, and the guy whose idea it was. <P>I just fear that the drive to move mass quantities of material for the quick gain is going to bite them later when the cost of living increases and the meteorite discoveries slow down. Right back into poverty in all walks of life. You can't add money to poulation without it affecting everyone. A controlled, educated release would be the smarter way to go in my opinion, set the market themselves, really improve things when that lunar is discovered. Something about a bird in the hand... You say they are happy, I believe you. You are still alive (some worried) and continue to do business over there with the same people. I am sure $10K+ over there stretches about as far as the NWA 482 did for you and your associates here. <BR> <BR> I still thik they are cutting off their nose to spite their face and will regret it down the road but there are certainly larger worries for the leaders of those countries than the nomads collecting rocks. Finders Keepers, also a tricky subject. To truely have long term economic improvement some govermental cooperation and intervention needs to be balanced with the individual gains of the finders. From what has been said about bribes, this would take a complete social overhaul. <P>The NWA situation shows quite the contrast compared to here where something like Monahans is strung out forever before it is allowed to the finders, then auctioned off for college tuition X7 by a businessman who knows the market's ebb and flow. That businessman then pays his taxes and....you get the idea <P>To sum up, I don't see the dealers as the saviors of the Sahara, which is not far from some of the latest arguments. Same goes for the hunters. To do this would require teaching them to better help themselves, beyond the act of collecting. The countries and their people are healthier, but not thriving. The possibility for economic hardship when this is all done is likely. But for now, the nomads are happy, the dealers are happy, and the collectors are ecstatic. NWA meteorites came in like a hurricane, lets all hope that when the leave they leave gracefully with minimal impact to the fragile nations involved. <P>Again Mike thanks for your input, don't mean to jump on NWA 482 but it is a stellar example. <P>Rob <BR> <BR> <BR> <P>Mike Farmer wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want you all to know, that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions to our suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over $10,000 more. Yes the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the Moroccans, the money we sent was a gift. They see business as completed when the deal is done, when we pay high prices and get a bad meteorite, we lose, when we get a good one, we win. Our people are extremely happy. No they are not making as much money as us, but when you look at profit margins, I think they are getting the best deal. Many years salery every couple of months for little work. When they sell them to us, they are finished, money in hand,.our work however, has just begun. I can tell you from 8 trips to the Sahara, when we buy there, by the time all expenses are paid and works is done, the price we have into the meteorites has doubled! <BR>It is hard work, and I invite anyone who doubts that to come work for me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with the large amount of meteorites that I have brought home. <BR>The people in North Africa do know the values, many of them were in Europe trying to sell meteorites at market value. They also failed, as they dont know everything they need to know about the business. I assume it is why a fruit grower wholesales his produce out to mass buyers, it is simple, they get paid a lump sum, and their work is done, imagine if every fruit grower sold his own items. They would all go bankrupt very quickly. You need a business person, someone who knows the people and the market, who can reach the buyers. The Moroccans know this and dont waste their time trying to sell individual pieces. They want to move large volumes of material. I think they are smart in doing business this way. <BR> I know the DeBeers diamond mines use large crushers to smash the rock to get the diamonds. The machines are set up for maximum efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste their time looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, all rock goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as ther are so few that they would lose time and money looking for them. It is sad, but much more efficient to destroy them and get more small ones. <BR>It is the same with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare ones. Tehy are willing to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of material. In the end it is more efficent and profitable for them. <BR>There is no set price for different meteorites, the rare ones, usually achondrites, are more expensive, but it takes ahrd barganing and when the Moroccans reach a price where they are happy, they sell. Each piece is different, they also buy them after all. <BR>Does this make sense? <BR>Mike Farmer <P>Rob and Colleen wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <P>Jim Strope wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>...This grading of material and offering higher prices is what is disturbing <BR>some of the earlier buyers who bought rare material for pennies per gram and <BR>tried to sell it to you for 100s of dollars per gram. This is what is <BR>making them mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone up <BR>considerably, even the common stuff.</BLOCKQUOTE> -This really doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price to up along with demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true value of the material in today's collector market. <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE> <P>When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per gram was so <BR>high that we were chastised by some European dealers for paying so much in <BR>the field. We did not know it was Lunar at the time. We guessed it was a <BR>Howardite or possibly a Eucrite. If it had turned out to be a Eucrite we <BR>would have been lucky to just get our money back. We took a chance. NWA <BR>482 had been offered to French and German dealers before us but they <BR>declined to pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are kicking <BR>themselves for that decision. Would you believe that even after <BR>classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike was scolded <BR>again in Paris because we paid too much and were driving up the prices.?</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>-Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 before the cutting loss and scientific donation had an estimated value of 4-4.5 million dollars based on the opening offers to the public. A gamble yes, as it could have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite valuable. To be chastised for approximating the true worth of the material speaks volumes for the one chastising.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare material in Morocco or any other <BR>country for rare material.</BLOCKQUOTE> -What is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron? <BR> -What are they asking <P>The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a collector who buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and sells a little on eBay to recoup on the price of the piece I want, far from profit other than cheaper meteorites in the long run. The business of collecting. <P>The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's land rights is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are stealing from the mouths of the nomads. They argue that <B><U>they</U></B> are contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on this point I agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when ultra valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent on the next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these answers. Human nature, however, is leaning me toward the belief that the nomads are getting the short end. While they are making money, and more than their collective ancestors ever did, I doubt they are getting even close to the value of the material they are out walking in some the the harshest conditions on the planet to collect and drag to some market. Now I am fully aware that such is the case in any business. The laborers don't get paid the same as the man at the desk. The migrant worker who picks berries makes more than his parents ever did but he will never be able to go into business for himself. Agreed. But the level of argument in this scenario has escalated to the point that those who argue for the people are a bit misguided in my book. The nomads are stymied by the fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a certain level and the hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab what they want and pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can not understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the outside world, certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they have the richest free market supply in the world. Maybe they are happy to get what they they get, but they are sitting on a gold mine. <P>Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of this science will pay attention to this time, and names will be remembered. Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this. <P>On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some mistakes have already been made and will never be resolved. Others haven't happened yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and nomads) need to evaluate which side of this sword they are on and how they want to be remembered, not what the other guy is doing. History will worry about the other guy. Collectors will pay what they decide to pay regardless of the collection practices of the dealer and will certainly be remembered as a collective. <P>To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way earlier in this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, and hold it. <P>The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about yourself and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap meteorite more than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we put a new piece on our shelf? <P>My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. Feel free to set me straight. <BR>Rob Wesel <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Jim Strope <BR>421 Fourth Street <BR>Glen Dale, WV 26038 <P>THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD: <BR><A HREF="http://www.nwa482.com">http://www.nwa482.com</A> <P>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Bob King" <lakewind_at_infi.net> <BR>To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com> <BR>Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:38 PM <BR>Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites <P>> Hello everyone, <BR>> With the current thread about the so-called plundering of desert <BR>> meteorites underway, I was curious how much the Moroccan <BR>> nomads are typically offered for their hauls of common weathered <BR>> chondrites. What do these finders usually ask and what is a typical <BR>> per gram price they are offered by American and French dealers? <BR>> Thanks! <BR>> Bob <BR>> <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>> Meteorite-list mailing list <BR>> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <BR>> <A HREF="http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A> <BR>> <P>_______________________________________________ <BR>Meteorite-list mailing list <BR>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <BR><A HREF="http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A></BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML> --------------E739085E43565E9053B5A775-- Received on Sat 30 Jun 2001 05:10:29 AM PDT |
 StumbleUpon del.icio.us reddit Yahoo MyWeb
|