[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites
From: Mark Miconi <mam602_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:15 2004 Message-ID: <004401c10121$f3d29fa0$04f20541_at_fwlr1.az.home.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C100E7.47290300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just read about DeBeers in Africa and how much damage and pollution they = create on earth each year. And about the human destruction, the ghettos = that form where the workers are housed, how little the workers are paid. Seems that meteorites are less destructive to the native humans in the = area and do not require the destruction of the environment to find. Mark ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Farmer=20 To: Rob and Colleen=20 Cc: Jim Strope ; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:31 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want you all to know, = that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions to our = suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over $10,000 = more. Yes the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the Moroccans, = the money we sent was a gift. They see business as completed when the = deal is done, when we pay high prices and get a bad meteorite, we lose, = when we get a good one, we win. Our people are extremely happy. No they = are not making as much money as us, but when you look at profit margins, = I think they are getting the best deal. Many years salery every couple = of months for little work. When they sell them to us, they are finished, = money in hand,.our work however, has just begun. I can tell you from 8 = trips to the Sahara, when we buy there, by the time all expenses are = paid and works is done, the price we have into the meteorites has = doubled!=20 It is hard work, and I invite anyone who doubts that to come work for = me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with the large amount of = meteorites that I have brought home.=20 The people in North Africa do know the values, many of them were in = Europe trying to sell meteorites at market value. They also failed, as = they dont know everything they need to know about the business. I assume = it is why a fruit grower wholesales his produce out to mass buyers, it = is simple, they get paid a lump sum, and their work is done, imagine if = every fruit grower sold his own items. They would all go bankrupt very = quickly. You need a business person, someone who knows the people and = the market, who can reach the buyers. The Moroccans know this and dont = waste their time trying to sell individual pieces. They want to move = large volumes of material. I think they are smart in doing business this = way.=20 I know the DeBeers diamond mines use large crushers to smash the = rock to get the diamonds. The machines are set up for maximum = efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste their time = looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, all = rock goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as = ther are so few that they would lose time and money looking for them. It = is sad, but much more efficient to destroy them and get more small ones. = It is the same with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare = ones. Tehy are willing to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of = material. In the end it is more efficent and profitable for them.=20 There is no set price for different meteorites, the rare ones, usually = achondrites, are more expensive, but it takes ahrd barganing and when = the Moroccans reach a price where they are happy, they sell. Each piece = is different, they also buy them after all.=20 Does this make sense?=20 Mike Farmer=20 Rob and Colleen wrote:=20 =20 Jim Strope wrote:=20 ...This grading of material and offering higher prices is what is = disturbing=20 some of the earlier buyers who bought rare material for pennies = per gram and=20 tried to sell it to you for 100s of dollars per gram. This is = what is=20 making them mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone = up=20 considerably, even the common stuff. -This really doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price = to up along with demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true value = of the material in today's collector market.=20 =20 When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per = gram was so=20 high that we were chastised by some European dealers for paying so = much in=20 the field. We did not know it was Lunar at the time. We guessed = it was a=20 Howardite or possibly a Eucrite. If it had turned out to be a = Eucrite we=20 would have been lucky to just get our money back. We took a = chance. NWA=20 482 had been offered to French and German dealers before us but = they=20 declined to pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are kicking = themselves for that decision. Would you believe that even after=20 classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike was = scolded=20 again in Paris because we paid too much and were driving up the = prices.? -Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 before the cutting loss = and scientific donation had an estimated value of 4-4.5 million dollars = based on the opening offers to the public. A gamble yes, as it could = have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite valuable. To be = chastised for approximating the true worth of the material speaks = volumes for the one chastising. Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare material in Morocco or any = other=20 country for rare material. -What is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron?=20 -What are they asking=20 The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a = collector who buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and = sells a little on eBay to recoup on the price of the piece I want, far = from profit other than cheaper meteorites in the long run. The business = of collecting.=20 The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's land = rights is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are = stealing from the mouths of the nomads. They argue that they are = contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on this point I = agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when ultra = valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further = compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent on = the next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these answers. Human = nature, however, is leaning me toward the belief that the nomads are = getting the short end. While they are making money, and more than their = collective ancestors ever did, I doubt they are getting even close to = the value of the material they are out walking in some the the harshest = conditions on the planet to collect and drag to some market. Now I am = fully aware that such is the case in any business. The laborers don't = get paid the same as the man at the desk. The migrant worker who picks = berries makes more than his parents ever did but he will never be able = to go into business for himself. Agreed. But the level of argument in = this scenario has escalated to the point that those who argue for the = people are a bit misguided in my book. The nomads are stymied by the = fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a certain level and the = hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab what they want and = pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can not = understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the outside = world, certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they have the = richest free market supply in the world. Maybe they are happy to get = what they they get, but they are sitting on a gold mine.=20 Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of = this science will pay attention to this time, and names will be = remembered. Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this.=20 On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some = mistakes have already been made and will never be resolved. Others = haven't happened yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and = nomads) need to evaluate which side of this sword they are on and how = they want to be remembered, not what the other guy is doing. History = will worry about the other guy. Collectors will pay what they decide to = pay regardless of the collection practices of the dealer and will = certainly be remembered as a collective.=20 To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way earlier in = this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, and = hold it.=20 The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about = yourself and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap = meteorite more than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we put a = new piece on our shelf?=20 My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. = Feel free to set me straight.=20 Rob Wesel=20 =20 Jim Strope=20 421 Fourth Street=20 Glen Dale, WV 26038=20 THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD:=20 http://www.nwa482.com=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Bob King" <lakewind_at_infi.net>=20 To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>=20 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:38 PM=20 Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites=20 > Hello everyone,=20 > With the current thread about the so-called plundering of desert = > meteorites underway, I was curious how much the Moroccan=20 > nomads are typically offered for their hauls of common weathered = > chondrites. What do these finders usually ask and what is a = typical=20 > per gram price they are offered by American and French dealers?=20 > Thanks!=20 > Bob=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________=20 > Meteorite-list mailing list=20 > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20 > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list=20 >=20 _______________________________________________=20 Meteorite-list mailing list=20 Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20 http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C100E7.47290300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just read about DeBeers in Africa and = how much=20 damage and pollution they create on earth each year. And about the human = destruction, the ghettos that form where the workers are housed, how = little the=20 workers are paid.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seems that meteorites are less = destructive to=20 the native humans in the area and do not require the destruction of = the=20 environment to find.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE=20 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B>=20 <A href=3D"mailto:farmerm_at_concentric.net" = title=3Dfarmerm_at_concentric.net>Mike=20 Farmer</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href=3D"mailto:iguana_at_pcez.com"=20 title=3Diguana_at_pcez.com>Rob and Colleen</A> </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20 href=3D"mailto:jim_at_catchafallingstar.com" = title=3Djim_at_catchafallingstar.com>Jim=20 Strope</A> ; <A href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com"=20 = title=3Dmeteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>meteorite-list@meteoritecentr= al.com</A>=20 </DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 29, 2001 = 9:31 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [meteorite-list] = Cost of=20 Moroccan meteorites</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want = you all=20 to know, that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions = to our=20 suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over $10,000 = more. Yes=20 the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the Moroccans, the money = we sent=20 was a gift. They see business as completed when the deal is done, when = we pay=20 high prices and get a bad meteorite, we lose, when we get a good one, = we win.=20 Our people are extremely happy. No they are not making as much money = as us,=20 but when you look at profit margins, I think they are getting the best = deal.=20 Many years salery every couple of months for little work. When they = sell them=20 to us, they are finished, money in hand,.our work however, has = just=20 begun. I can tell you from 8 trips to the Sahara, when we buy = there, by=20 the time all expenses are paid and works is done, the price we have = into the=20 meteorites has doubled! <BR>It is hard work, and I invite anyone who = doubts=20 that to come work for me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with = the=20 large amount of meteorites that I have brought home. <BR>The people in = North=20 Africa do know the values, many of them were in Europe trying to sell=20 meteorites at market value. They also failed, as they dont know = everything=20 they need to know about the business. I assume it is why a fruit = grower=20 wholesales his produce out to mass buyers, it is simple, they get paid = a lump=20 sum, and their work is done, imagine if every fruit grower sold his = own items.=20 They would all go bankrupt very quickly. You need a business person, = someone=20 who knows the people and the market, who can reach the buyers. The = Moroccans=20 know this and dont waste their time trying to sell individual pieces. = They=20 want to move large volumes of material. I think they are smart in = doing=20 business this way. <BR> I know the DeBeers diamond = mines use=20 large crushers to smash the rock to get the diamonds. The machines are = set up=20 for maximum efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste = their=20 time looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, = all rock=20 goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as ther = are so=20 few that they would lose time and money looking for them. It is sad, = but much=20 more efficient to destroy them and get more small ones. <BR>It is the = same=20 with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare ones. Tehy are = willing=20 to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of material. In the end it = is more=20 efficent and profitable for them. <BR>There is no set price for = different=20 meteorites, the rare ones, usually achondrites, are more expensive, = but it=20 takes ahrd barganing and when the Moroccans reach a price where they = are=20 happy, they sell. Each piece is different, they also buy them after = all.=20 <BR>Does this make sense? <BR>Mike Farmer=20 <P>Rob and Colleen wrote:=20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"> =20 <P>Jim Strope wrote:=20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">...This grading of material and offering = higher=20 prices is what is disturbing <BR>some of the earlier buyers who = bought=20 rare material for pennies per gram and <BR>tried to sell it to you = for=20 100s of dollars per gram. This is what is <BR>making = them=20 mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone up=20 <BR>considerably, even the common stuff.</BLOCKQUOTE>-This = really=20 doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price to up along = with=20 demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true value of the = material=20 in today's collector market.=20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE"> =20 <P>When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per = gram=20 was so <BR>high that we were chastised by some European dealers = for paying=20 so much in <BR>the field. We did not know it was Lunar at = the=20 time. We guessed it was a <BR>Howardite or possibly a = Eucrite. =20 If it had turned out to be a Eucrite we <BR>would have been lucky = to just=20 get our money back. We took a chance. NWA <BR>482 had = been=20 offered to French and German dealers before us but they = <BR>declined to=20 pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are kicking = <BR>themselves=20 for that decision. Would you believe that even after=20 <BR>classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike = was=20 scolded <BR>again in Paris because we paid too much and were = driving up=20 the prices.?</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">-Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 = before the=20 cutting loss and scientific donation had an estimated value of = 4-4.5=20 million dollars based on the opening offers to the public. A = gamble yes,=20 as it could have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite = valuable.=20 To be chastised for approximating the true worth of the material = speaks=20 volumes for the one chastising.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare = material in=20 Morocco or any other <BR>country for rare = material.</BLOCKQUOTE> -What=20 is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron? <BR> -What are they = asking=20 <P>The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a = collector who=20 buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and sells a little = on eBay=20 to recoup on the price of the piece I want, far from profit other = than=20 cheaper meteorites in the long run. The business of collecting.=20 <P>The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's = land rights=20 is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are = stealing from=20 the mouths of the nomads. They argue that = <B><U>they</U></B> =20 are contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on = this point=20 I agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when = ultra=20 valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further=20 compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent = on the=20 next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these answers. Human = nature,=20 however, is leaning me toward the belief that the nomads are = getting=20 the short end. While they are making money, and more than their = collective=20 ancestors ever did, I doubt they are getting even close to the value = of the=20 material they are out walking in some the the harshest conditions on = the=20 planet to collect and drag to some market. Now I am fully aware that = such is=20 the case in any business. The laborers don't get paid the same as = the man at=20 the desk. The migrant worker who picks berries makes more than his = parents=20 ever did but he will never be able to go into business for himself. = Agreed.=20 But the level of argument in this scenario has escalated to the = point that=20 those who argue for the people are a bit misguided in my book. The = nomads=20 are stymied by the fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a = certain=20 level and the hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab = what they=20 want and pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can = not=20 understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the = outside world,=20 certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they have the richest = free=20 market supply in the world. Maybe they are happy to get what they = they get,=20 but they are sitting on a gold mine.=20 <P>Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of = this=20 science will pay attention to this time, and names will be = remembered.=20 Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this.=20 <P>On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some = mistakes=20 have already been made and will never be resolved. Others haven't = happened=20 yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and nomads) need to = evaluate=20 which side of this sword they are on and how they want to be = remembered, not=20 what the other guy is doing. History will worry about the other guy. = Collectors will pay what they decide to pay regardless of the = collection=20 practices of the dealer and will certainly be remembered as a = collective.=20 <P>To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way = earlier in=20 this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, = and hold=20 it.=20 <P>The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about = yourself=20 and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap = meteorite more=20 than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we put a new piece = on our=20 shelf?=20 <P>My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. = Feel=20 free to set me straight. <BR>Rob Wesel <BR> =20 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Jim Strope <BR>421 Fourth Street <BR>Glen = Dale,=20 WV 26038=20 <P>THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD: = <BR><A=20 href=3D"http://www.nwa482.com">http://www.nwa482.com</A>=20 <P>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Bob King"=20 <lakewind_at_infi.net> <BR>To:=20 <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com> <BR>Sent: Friday, June = 29,=20 2001 8:38 PM <BR>Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan = meteorites=20 <P>> Hello everyone, <BR>> With the current thread about the = so-called plundering of desert <BR>> meteorites underway, I was = curious=20 how much the Moroccan <BR>> nomads are typically offered for = their=20 hauls of common weathered <BR>> chondrites. What do these = finders=20 usually ask and what is a typical <BR>> per gram price they are = offered=20 by American and French dealers? <BR>> Thanks! <BR>> Bob = <BR>>=20 <BR>> _______________________________________________ <BR>>=20 Meteorite-list mailing list <BR>> = Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20 <BR>> <A=20 = href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w= ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A>=20 <BR>>=20 <P>_______________________________________________ = <BR>Meteorite-list=20 mailing list <BR>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <BR><A=20 = href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w= ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO= CKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C100E7.47290300-- Received on Sat 30 Jun 2001 01:03:07 AM PDT |
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