[meteorite-list] speck specs

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From: MeteorHntr_at_aol.com <MeteorHntr_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:42:03 2004
Message-ID: <d7.15c2bb8.279e90fc_at_aol.com>

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In a message dated 1/22/01 7:36:36 PM Central Standard Time,
meteorites_at_space.com writes:

> Though the idea of having "certified specks" is a noble idea--
> It won't work or be an thing other than a means of dealers further
> capitalizing on the whims of uninformed buyers-- UNLESS THE ITEMS IN
> QUESTION ARE VERIFIED BY PARTIES OTHER THAN THE SELLER.
>
>

Hello Mr. Shoner, et al.,

Tonight I was discussing over pizza with a friend of mine that knows very
little about the meteorite business that I was planning on trying to
establish some type of a photo certification for some of the samples I would
be offering in the future.

I told him about how I was able to get a third party photo certification on
some NWA 032 Lunar meteorite samples on pieces down to 15mg in size, and that
there seemed to be a favorable response to it, enough so that I wanted to
expand it to other specimens as well.

He brought up the coin grading services and asked if I planned to offer my
services for OTHER dealers materials, and I said that there was no way I
could do stand behind someone else's material, especially in a guaranteed
way. Coins can be authenticated and guaranteed visually where with many
meteorites, this cannot be done with absolute certainty as to which fall/find
they are from. I then brought up the Weston, CT and the Sylacaga, AL
examples, and I pointed out that with them being ordinary chondrites, it
would be next to impossible for even the best labs to prove that these are
from the very historic falls, even by chemical analysis. However, it would
be much easier for a lab to identify some of the more exotic specimens as
being or not being what they are supposed to be.

As for the more common types, it will be necessary for me to only be able to
offer my personal guarantee that the items are what I say they are on the
specimen photographed certificate. If I have a specific pedigree that can be
documented, such as I acquired the specimen via a trade with a specific
institution, then that too could be provided.

I agree that the BEST OPTION would be to offer third party identification.
However, in the event that a third party lab could not conclusively establish
the identity of certian specimens (which would be most of them), at the very
least the collector would have something to offer a future buyer to back up
the claim, with a dealers signature on a photo ID card. And mind you, this
photo ID would be valuable for large specimens as well. One can be ripped
off with a 90g fake Weston about as easy as one can be with a 0.090g fake
Weston.

Please don't underestimate the importance of this last paragraph. If a
"no-named" collector wants to later sell a specimen, a photo ID by a dealer
on ANY sized specimen will make that specimen more valuable, it is
conceivable that such documentation could be very valuable. And yes, if it
is possible to get a third party identification, that would make the specimen
even more valuable.

I have a piece of Cape York with a signed ID card from Buchwald. I have
slices of Beaver (the famous jail house doorstop) with the recoverer's ID
number on it and a photo with the original farmer/finder with the rock. I
have a slice of Happy Canyon with a Huss number on it. I have pieces of
Lodran that I got from the Nat. History Museum London with the BMNH ID card.
I have NWA 032 Lunar small part slices with third party photo documentation.
I have Allende from Dr. King's Collection that I personally removed from his
widows home. I would say that ALL of these are worth at least a little bit
more due to the extra documentation that accompanies them. But let me point
out one thing they all have in common, what is NOW a 3rd party documentation,
at one point wasn't third party documentation (with the exception of the NWA
032). A dealers signature, especially with a photo of the specific specimen,
down the road does become a form of third party documentation, especially if
that dealer's reputation continues to be favorable over the years.

A perfect example would be if you sold me a 20g Holbrook (individual or
slice) that you personally found. Can I trust you that you found it? Sure.
But 50 years from now can a collector trust my kids when they sell off my
collection after my death? What if there is a "2nd party" signed
photographed ID card from you, would that help the value of the Holbrook for
my kids?

No matter the size, tiny speck or huge specimen, the photo ID can only help
down the road.

Just my 2mg worth.

Steve Arnold
www.meteoritebroker.com

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<HTML>In a message dated 1/22/01 7:36:36 PM Central Standard Time,
 meteorites_at_space.com writes:
 
 
 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Though the idea of having "certified specks" is a noble idea--
 It won't work or be an thing other than a means of dealers further
 capitalizing on the whims of uninformed buyers-- UNLESS THE ITEMS IN
 QUESTION ARE VERIFIED BY PARTIES OTHER THAN THE SELLER.
 
 </BLOCKQUOTE>
 
 Hello Mr. Shoner, et al.,
 
 Tonight I was discussing over pizza with a friend of mine that knows very
 little about the meteorite business that I was planning on trying to
 establish some type of a photo certification for some of the samples I would
 be offering in the future.
 
 I told him about how I was able to get a third party photo certification on
 some NWA 032 Lunar meteorite samples on pieces down to 15mg in size, and that
 there seemed to be a favorable response to it, enough so that I wanted to
 expand it to other specimens as well.
 
 He brought up the coin grading services and asked if I planned to offer my
 services for OTHER dealers materials, and I said that there was no way I
 could do stand behind someone else's material, especially in a guaranteed
 way.  Coins can be authenticated and guaranteed visually where with many
 meteorites, this cannot be done with absolute certainty as to which fall/find
 they are from.  I then brought up the Weston, CT and the Sylacaga, AL
 examples, and I pointed out that with them being ordinary chondrites, it
 would be next to impossible for even the best labs to prove that these are
 from the very historic falls, even by chemical analysis.  However, it would
 be much easier for a lab to identify some of the more exotic specimens as
 being or not being what they are supposed to be.
 
 As for the more common types, it will be necessary for me to only be able to
 offer my personal guarantee that the items are what I say they are on the
 specimen photographed certificate.  If I have a specific pedigree that can be
 documented, such as I acquired the specimen via a trade with a specific
 institution, then that too could be provided.  
 
 I agree that the BEST OPTION would be to offer third party identification.  
 However, in the event that a third party lab could not conclusively establish
 the identity of certian specimens (which would be most of them), at the very
 least the collector would have something to offer a future buyer to back up
 the claim, with a dealers signature on a photo ID card.  And mind you, this
 photo ID would be valuable for large specimens as well.  One can be ripped
 off with a 90g fake Weston about as easy as one can be with a 0.090g fake
 Weston.
 
 Please don't underestimate the importance of this last paragraph.  If a
 "no-named" collector wants to later sell a specimen, a photo ID by a dealer
 on ANY sized specimen will make that specimen more valuable, it is
 conceivable that such documentation could be very valuable.  And yes, if it
 is possible to get a third party identification, that would make the specimen
 even more valuable.  
 
 I have a piece of Cape York with a signed ID card from Buchwald.  I have
 slices of Beaver (the famous jail house doorstop) with the recoverer's ID
 number on it and a photo with the original farmer/finder with the rock.  I
 have a slice of Happy Canyon with a Huss number on it.  I have pieces of
 Lodran that I got from the Nat. History Museum London with the BMNH ID card.  
 I have NWA 032 Lunar small part slices with third party photo documentation.  
 I have Allende from Dr. King's Collection that I personally removed from his
 widows home.  I would say that ALL of these are worth at least a little bit
 more due to the extra documentation that accompanies them.  But let me point
 out one thing they all have in common, what is NOW a 3rd party documentation,
 at one point wasn't third party documentation (with the exception of the NWA
 032).  A dealers signature, especially with a photo of the specific specimen,
 down the road does become a form of third party documentation, especially if
 that dealer's reputation continues to be favorable over the years.
 
 A perfect example would be if you sold me a 20g Holbrook (individual or
 slice) that you personally found.  Can I trust you that you found it?  Sure.  
 But 50 years from now can a collector trust my kids when they sell off my
 collection after my death?  What if there is a "2nd party" signed
 photographed ID card from you, would that help the value of the Holbrook for
 my kids?  
 
 No matter the size, tiny speck or huge specimen, the photo ID can only help
 down the road.
 
 Just my 2mg worth.
 
 Steve Arnold
 www.meteoritebroker.com</HTML>

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Received on Tue 23 Jan 2001 02:47:08 AM PST

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