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Re: Re. Monahans article
Hi Ken, Stuart and list,
I couldnīt agree more to what Stuart and Ken said.
I just add some more thoughts to those collectors as somebody who was a "crazy"
collector of lot of things years before. Possessing things ( not only
collectable ) can mean that one is possessed by these things. Well, some years
ago, when I collected butterflies, coins and all that stuff, I learned much, met
interesting people, found some friends, made some interesting experiences. But,
some years ago, I decided not to be possessed by things. Well, I have some
things, but when I have to give them away, live goes on. It is similar to
alcohol, if you need a gallon of whiskey every day, you canīt enjoy a good
wine. And, when I stopped all my activities, some friends disappeared, some
stayed.
Collecting things which are no scientific value ( like telephone cards ) or a
limited value to a collector ( hey, of course there is no limit of a value, but
for research you have to be able to do research) means always you can earn or
loose money.Their value depends on what in inside the brain of other people ( is
there any meteorite which has come down with a price on it ?) and therefore not
logical.Some people call me crazy because I paid 5 $ for an arrow-head of an
Indian but we do not have any indians in Europe and therefore nothing like that
can be found in my garden. And, the Americans buy militaria at horrendable
prices from here, so what ?
I wasnīt wondering about the discussions because of these Monahans, all this
discussions seemed like a soap opera ( I never watch them ) where you always
say:"Oh, I have seen that already." And, indeed I have seen that many times
before in different variations.
If any of you collects other things you will find that all this discussion are
there, too.
All discussions of what is cheap or expensive, whether somebody has two nickels
to rub together ( Haha, I have even three but cannot rub them as they are in
plastic )or not and how prices will develop and all the sorrows what will
happen if prices go high. Any of these questions are not worth that you insult
friends and the whole conversation wasnīt worth that some people on the list
felt that they were insulted.
So, if somebody thinks he has to pay a lot of money for a meteorite, it is his
money. If you cannot bid for them as you have not found any SNC in your backyard
yesterday, be calm, you will probably never buy a plane, make holidays on the
moon and maybe you will be never invited to the White House. Live goes on.
The only thing we all have but cannot enlarge is time. So, donīt waste it.
Blaise PASCAL said, people have problems only because they do not sit quietly
in their rooms.
Joachim
Kenneth Carpenter schrieb:
> Ah the passion of the collector! Lets keep our cool here folks. This is
> an interesting field. The unique chunks of the universe have a magic about
> them. So do the rocks beneath our feet. They have the same origin. We
> pursue various things in our collections. Years ago I collected watches. I
> was robbed one night and no longer collect watches. Now my shelf has funny
> looking rocks on it. In the last analysis, they are all" things." We will
> depart this world and the things will be of no consequence to us. Step back
> and take a deep breath. Are these things we collect worth hurt feelings and
> public embarrassment? Lets follow our interests and let Steve, Michael ,
> et.al follow theirs. Some will agree and some disagree, but in 7 billion
> years(approx.) this will all be over and who paid how much for what ever
> will be forgotten. Sometimes it helps to think of the Trilobite. It
> dominated all the oceans of the world for longer than any other species (300
> Million Years) Where are they today...? Who thinks about them? They died
> out and Time, the great leveler, moved on. The meteorites they collected
> and what they paid has been forgotten. Take the long view and relax. Enjoy
> the auction or ignore it... it'll be alright either way.
> Ken Carpenter
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: STUARTATK@aol.com
> To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
>
> Date: Friday, July 24, 1998 11:17 AM
> Subject: Re. Monahans article
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >So far everyone seems very restrained about this article... well, I'm
> sorry,
> >but I'm not going to be. Someone has to say something in defence of the
> many,
> >unseen "little people" on this list who have been insulted by the
> references
> >in the article in question.
> >
> >But first of all, I have to say that the subject of the auction itself is
> so
> >far over my head - the politics, personal issues, legal ins and outs, the
> >fairtyale figures, all of it is just *so* not a part of my life that I can
> >dismiss it. For God's sake, just sort yourselves out, okay? This is a
> >dreadful, shameful mess, very sloppy, and reflects very badly on us as a
> >community. I share Julia's concerns. It's worrying, as she points out, that
> >meteorites and investment are joined at the hip in the article... don't
> want
> >to, but I have to say "I told you so" and people argued against it. Okay,
> WE
> >know they're NOT a good investment, but people with money to spare aren't
> >going to know that, and are going to scan articles like this in their
> papers
> >and on the net and just see the $$$$$$ signs and go in search of meteorites
> of
> >their own. That will suit the big dealers just fine, maybe that's just what
> >they want, but it will mean there'll never be a hope in hell of all us
> little
> >guys adding to our collections, because it'll become a chain reaction, a
> >buying frenzy: the genuinely rare pieces will go first, as they have the
> >largest prices, and then investors' attentions will turn to "what's left",
> and
> >eventually even pieces of Canyon Diablo and Sikhote Alin etc will be priced
> >beyond the range of beginning or even modest collectors.
> >
> >I'm also concerned and distressed about the way we will be portrayed in
> future
> >- as greedy, etc - because that's just not fair! I've made so many friends
> on
> >this List since joining, several people have been outstandingly generous to
> me
> >- and they know who they are - so I recoil from the word "greed" because it
> >only applies, I think, to a very few people. But it's been used, and will
> be
> >used again, so I think that we really, really should consider some sort of
> >response to the article, or ask for a right of reply, I'm not sure which
> would
> >be best.
> >
> >Call me naive, but I can't help feeling very sad about this. This whole
> thing
> >should have been a classic "meteorite fairy tale": kids find meteorites,
> get
> >shafted by local govt, public stand beside them and they win... meteorite
> >becomes famous and community gains... instead we have this whole "greed"
> thing
> >taking over, creeping over us and our dealings with each other like some
> >escaped martian lifeform ( :-) ) and we look like a bunch of
> money-obsessed
> >fanatics. There's a lot of jealousy, personal dislike, indignation and
> >discomfort here which I don't pretend - and have no desire - to understand.
> I
> >just know that there's something... I don't know... "grubby" about this.
> >
> >As for the poor, innocent meteorite itself - oh my god yes, that's right,
> >there IS a meteorite at the heart of this story! - well, it sounds like it
> >could be special, with those crystals and all, and we should be filling our
> >postings with discussions about its structure, appearance and origins - you
> >know, stuff about meteorites..? As for its contamination, well, I've been
> >following both sides of this argument, ducking as each accusation whistles
> >over my head, but I'm in no position to comment on if it's been damaged or
> >contaminated or not because I wasn't there and haven't seen the pictures
> yet
> >cos I've been to busy with my REAL life to check them out. If it has been
> >damaged in any way then that's a great, great shame, and the people
> >responsible for that damage should be ashamed and remind themselves just
> how
> >important these wonderful things are. Damage - to the meteorite for the
> sake
> >of a good photo must be considered a crime against science, surely?
> >
> >And one sentence leapt out at me: "Scientifically there's a limit to its
> >value." WHAT?? Did I really just read that??? What "limit" is this? I
> thought
> >we were all being told how rare and exciting it was, and how the blue
> crystals
> >are exceptional... who knows what we might learn from studying this
> meteorite,
> >what questions it might answer? What new questions it might pose? Is there
> a
> >"scientific limit" to the value of the lunar rocks brought back by the
> Apollo
> >crews? (See ya Al, take care Out There... and thanks...!) Would there be a
> >limit to the scientific value of samples returned from Mars? Has the limit
> of
> >the "scientific value" of the Viking, Voyager and Galileo images been
> reached
> >yet? Should we just throw out all the unprocessed data? Good grief... I
> really
> >can't believe I read that...
> >
> >But what has REALLY annoyed me is the article's derogatory reference to
> >meteorite collectors, specifically the less financially secure collectors.
> >Maybe this is a veiled personal attack on just a couple of people but I
> don't
> >care, it tars us all with the same brush. How dare he say that! Damn, what
> >business is it of *anyone's* how much money someone else makes? I'm well
> aware
> >that there are some people on this list who I would consider to be VERY
> >wealthy, but I haven't read any postings from them bragging about that. Me,
> I
> >earn next to nothing for a crummy job, so I value the few meteorites I
> posess
> >even more because I've sweated for them, personally. I admit it, I don't
> have
> >two nickels to rub together, and the only way I could afford to bid in the
> >"auction" would be if a) I won the Lottery this weekend, b) an SNC fell in
> my
> >backyard, tonight, or c) I rubbed at that dusty old oil lamp on the shelf
> over
> >there and saw purple smoke start to come out. But that doesn't mean I'm not
> >allowed to give an opinion!! Just because I don't earn big bucks doesn't
> mean
> >I'm not allowed to voice my comments on and concern over this issue! (Hey,
> >Art, maybe access to the List should be permitted only to those who can
> prove
> >they earn over a certain amount? Or maybe after running a Credit Check?
> What
> >do you think?) I may have missed something here, but if that *is* the case,
> >then does the fact that I scan the aisles at my local store looking for
> items
> >with "Reduced" stickers on mean I'm not allowed to join in conversations
> about
> >such things as food safety, world hunger or disarmament? Last time I
> checked
> >the size of your bank balance didn't dictate the level of your
> participation
> >in democratic discussions. Duh. Stoopid me.
> >
> >Sorry if you think I'm ranting but... well, no, actually I'm not sorry, not
> at
> >all, I'm very annoyed about this. How much money I earn is no-one's
> business.
> >Just because I can't afford to bid in the auction doesn't mean I can't
> express
> >an opinion about it, just the same as I can moan about CD prices even if I
> >can't afford one.
> >
> >Anyway, that's how I feel. Feel free to write and condemn me for over-
> >reacting, I'll live with it.
> >
> >I just feel like I need a shower right now.
> >
> >Stuart A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----------
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